rawtiron Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 This arrived at my place the other day. Thanks Alan, Owen, Phil and MikeyP for your input and advice. The guy I bought it off got it with a pile of other stuff and sold off what he didn't want, so I got it for scrap value and had to get it transported from 200km away. It's been out in the weather for years but so far everything is freeing up ok with penetrating oil and a little encouragement. It's nice to see grease/oil on all the nut and bolt threads. I removed the decompression valve today (Which is understandably seized closed) and no water has got into the piston/liner area, it looks to be really clean with just some black grease type film in there. I bought this as a longish term project but we'll see how that pans out. The only missing pieces are the motor mount and the cap off the oiler reservoir (which must've got lost when the guy moved to his place as the oil looks remarkably clean). I'm looking at maybe running this off a petrol or diesel engine (so would appreciate any advice on that) as I don't have 3 phase to the property and it will be under a roof outside of the main shop as it's built on a suspended concrete slab with 27 driven piles and load of steel holding it in place. I'll add more photos as I go. For some reason these photos are not in the order they were upload. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 Looks good. Mine was outside for quite a few years and was pristine inside. If you have not done so already, when you open up the back plate you will be most impressed with the crank, big end and con rod…lovely engineering scale! My oiler cap was missing also. I machine one up to match the line drawing of the one on the installation blueprint but in use the oil would splash past it with the rhythm of the hammer. So I ended up extending the bronze hopper with a 150mm (6") tube and made up a cover like a chimney cowl to keep the muck out but allowed the oil level to pulse without splash. Running it off a donkey engine should not be too much of a problem. A friend along the road here has a 1cwt Alldays which also was missing its motor and engine mounting plate. He had an aluminium pinion machined up which was horribly noisy and graunched away like a "good un". The originals are made from self-lubricating silent-running Tufnel sandwiched between steel end plates. When he moved to the new shop he did away with the pinion, slid the motor a couple of inches back and had a loop of flat belting made up which drove directly onto the flywheel gear teeth. It is even quieter than my Tufnel ones. One day I will do the same with mine. Alan p.s. Ooops! I think I have already told you some of this in our PMs, sorry for the repeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 rawtiron Nice find. That should be sweet hammer when you get it running. Perhaps I will come visit it when I get 'Down Under' in a few years. NZ is one of the place I will visit in my lifetime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtiron Posted December 21, 2014 Author Share Posted December 21, 2014 I'd say that once I dig the hole for this, I won't be moving for a while, so let me know when you're making the trip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtiron Posted December 21, 2014 Author Share Posted December 21, 2014 Hi Alan, I'll keep that in mind with the oiler extension tube and will be pulling the back plate off this week for a look. I've got the motor with the tufnel gear on it so my thoughts were to stick it on the lay shaft with a belt pulley on the other end for the engine. How many donkeys do you think I'm going to need? I thought 20-30. And how may rpm do these motors run at? I was thinking about mounting it on a pivot at one end and a bottle jack at the other to lower it and tension the drive belts once running. But who knows where this will end up, maybe a clutch? Any ideas on getting the key out of the shaft? I was thinking of a wedge maybe but it's real tight. I could tig a nut on it and use a slide hammer. How old do you think this is? There's no tag on the motor and the hammer has 'c330' stamped on the front of it. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtiron Posted December 21, 2014 Author Share Posted December 21, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 This couldn't have gone to a better home. Excited to see the progress rawtiron. Nj anvil, I went and saw rawtiron a few years ago and had a wonderful time. Very gracious and thoughtful hosts. New Zealand would be my top pick to return to. Lovely people and a beautiful country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 I was going to tell you that it looked of similar vintage to my 3cwt. they share the same exhaust port on the side. Some earlier ones had an exhaust out of the top of the valve chest. I have seen those with a pipe going back over the master cylinder, picking up the decompression vent and then on through the wall to blow the chuff and the contained hot oily air around the countryside. I say I was going to tell you, but as I never did find out the age of mine and you have now asked for ideas as to age it would be something and nothing! :) You would be pretty safe to say 1920s to1950s I don't think they changed the design that much from the early Pilkington to when they ceased production. One of the fun things you will be able to do with a donkey engine is vary the rpm (and therefore BPM) of the hammer. When I first set up my Blacker I could only get hold of a 1450 rpm and it needed a 950rpm I think. despite using a small diameter drive pulley it went like hell. When I finally sourced the correct motor and ran it at the right speed it was a bit disappointingly slow :( Do you need to get the key out? It has the cam operated oil system so the bearings should not have been run dry, mine were fine. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikey-p Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 mine was spotless when i opened the backplate too... it looked brand new and it had been standing in an open shed for a good 20 years... all i had to do was put some fresh oil in and it runs like a dream... more to follow in the thread i started a while back... so lazy when it comes to video and pics... ill give you a bell if you are around palmie from the 27th - 29th dec rawtiron... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtiron Posted December 21, 2014 Author Share Posted December 21, 2014 Do you need to get the key out? It has the cam operated oil system so the bearings should not have been run dry, mine were fine. Alan No, just the key on the motor to get the gear off. I think I'll leave the flywheel where it is as long as the bottom end is ok. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtiron Posted December 21, 2014 Author Share Posted December 21, 2014 mine was spotless when i opened the backplate too... it looked brand new and it had been standing in an open shed for a good 20 years... all i had to do was put some fresh oil in and it runs like a dream... more to follow in the thread i started a while back... so lazy when it comes to video and pics... ill give you a bell if you are around palmie from the 27th - 29th dec rawtiron... Hi Mike, I'll be working through but home after 6pm. Keep in touch Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 No, just the key on the motor to get the gear off. I think I'll leave the flywheel where it is as long as the bottom end is ok. Jason In that case maybe don't bother to remove the key. You have the perfect ready-made lay shaft, bearings and all, in a supporting frame which only requires a table bolted on to the side of the hammer frame. Pity about the missing motor mount/table. I can't remember where but years ago I saw someone with a similar problem had taken out the outer windings of the motor and cut a hole through the side of the motor casing in order to run a flat belt around the armature…You will have to weigh up whether you will get more for the motor if it is working, or just selling off the copper windings as scrap and saving yourself the materials and some of the time involved in making up the lay shaft and its support. Food for thought... Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 That's an awfully nice looking hammer and you got tooling to boot and all at scrap value! You have got to start buying lottery tickets... that lucky star seems to have found you big time. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtiron Posted December 23, 2014 Author Share Posted December 23, 2014 On 12/22/2014 at 5:46 AM, Alan Evans said: In that case maybe don't bother to remove the key. I can't remember where but years ago I saw someone with a similar problem had taken out the outer windings of the motor and cut a hole through the side of the motor casing in order to run a flat belt around the armature… Thanks Alan, I was just going to sit it under the bench (because it would look good under there with the all the other treasures that don't take up much space and will be useful one day). I'll spend some more time on it this weekend now the work for the galleries will quieten off for a while. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtiron Posted December 23, 2014 Author Share Posted December 23, 2014 That's an awfully nice looking hammer and you got tooling to boot and all at scrap value! You have got to start buying lottery tickets... that lucky star seems to have found you big time. :) Hi Ian, I paid a bit extra for the tooling but still very good value. The guy kept the anvil and swage block and still has a pile of top and bottom tools. I've spent enough at the moment so will see if he's still got them after the new year. They were all sitting in a big box outside for years, but a wire wheel fixes that. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtiron Posted December 26, 2014 Author Share Posted December 26, 2014 Merry Christmas everyone. A few more progress shots. Both bores look in good shape. The piston has some what I guess are casting imperfections in the top. The tup is seized solid, I've had a 20 ton bottle jack on it with reasonable pressure but no movey movey. Even whacking it down with a block of wood and a sedge it won't budge. Its about 50mm (2 inches) above the wedge so I'm guessing it's either rusted in the lower part of the bore where water could've got in around the wedge nuts or jammed. I've loaded it with penetrating oil so hopefully that frees it up or I'm unsure where to go with it. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtiron Posted December 26, 2014 Author Share Posted December 26, 2014 And out it comes!! I soaked it with trans fluid and turps, tapped the bottom of the tup back and forth and side to side, jacked and released till the fluid started dripping then tapped it on top with the sledge and a block of wood. Flushed the mixture through it a couple of times and waited about 2 hours. Got the jack on it and away it went, so I moved it about 10mm up then down to free the suspected rust and out it came. The bore looks good (a few vertical surface scratches) and as you can see the piston will need some work to the lower half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 I am quite surprised at the rust around the air buffer valve. I replaced mine when it went with a piece of shimstock which is springy. You should be able to get it from an engineering supply place. Just match the thickness. The little folded up ears are important so match them. The tup looks great, by the time you have scraped of the bottom end and it has a good coating of oil I am sure it will work a treat. The brass guide bar is worth replacing, when they get too well worn the edges of the worn grooves can bear on the edges of the tup flats and make it a pain to get the adjustment just right. You can get around that by just grinding away some of the unworn bits to the same level of the worn in order to prevent the edge rub, and allow the wedge action to work properly. I vaguely remember that the copper fixings are bolts rather than rivets so you may be able to get them out and reuse them. Can you send over a bit of your sunshine? We have just had a yellow snow warning here.....not that kind of yellow snow I hasten to add! Yellow, Amber, Red... Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 Have you looked into a rotary phase converter, or frequency drive to run the old motor? For my 3 phase equipment I just used another 3 phase motor to wire through when I didn't have 3 phase. Works fine, you just lose 1/3 of the horsepower. I ran a 18.5"x54" Monarch lathe, 10x16 Clausing surface grinder, vertical mill,and more that way for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 To use the jack motor you run the power through another motor before the motor on the equipment. This is what I had to do with 240v single phase at home. Connect all of the grounds together. Connect one of the 240 lines to one of the 3 wires on the jack motor, and one of the 3 wires on the equipment. Connect the other 240 line to one of the remaining 2 wires on each of the motors. Connect the remaining wires on the motors together. To run the lathe I would set the plug lightly into the outlet,I use the plugs that clothes dryers use, but not far enough to make contact. I would wrap a length of heavy cord around the jack motor shaft, and give it a pull start before pushing in the plug all the way. The jack motor would stay running, and I would then start the lathe normally. With the surface grinder, if the rotation was wrong I would have to stop, and reverse the rotation on the jack motor to get it correct. You only get 2/3rds output as you only have 2 hot legs as opposed to 3, but I never had any problems with not having enough power at the equipmant as it was all overbuilt to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 I use a small 1/4 hp motor on a hinge to start my 10 hp converter motor. As soon as it is up to speed, I energize it and turn off the starter motor. Has worked this way for 30+ years. To reverse the rotation of any three phase motors, all you have to do is switch two of the leads. I have never had any power issues with this setup. If I need more power in the third leg, I turn on another machine that has no load. Seems to work. I sort of know why, but all I care about is that it works. I have run a shop this way for a long time without any problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtiron Posted December 27, 2014 Author Share Posted December 27, 2014 Thanks for that info guys, I'll look into it further. My thoughts for running a combustion engine were to also power a large compressor for the shop when needed. I'll look at all avenues though, as I'm a while away from powering it up. I pulled the back plate off and removed the rotary valve this morning. I see what you mean by the engineering Alan, it's a work of art! I used a bar and pins to turn the flywheel as I had the piston soaking overnight, and it took 2 revolutions before I could turn it by hand. The oil pump works great too. There is some grey matter around the main bearings on top of the crank area which may be from the thrust washers? Or dropped down from the piston/bore? There is rust around the main bearing end cap where the gasket has failed over many years. I'm wondering how far to strip this down, there seems to be no play anywhere? The piston has a very slight amount at TDC and there is no wear lip in the bore, just what's looks to be a repair maybe to a pit/defect from when it was cast, it just looks shinier the the bore. Both bores have light surface rust but the machining is coarser than I'm used to with car engines. What's the best method of removing it? Light emery and an oil, which would mean the piston will need to be removed. It seems to be more in the pits of the bore which I guess won't matter anyway? The valve looks ok, just small pitting and stains from water over the years. Let me know what you think. How's that yellow snow going Alan? Another hot day here. Thank you, Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 Re using an engine: Used to be a blacksmith shop in Castroville, Texas that ran everything in the shop off a jackshaft powered by an old Lincoln welder that was converted to a flat belt pulley. I don't think those engines made more than 35 hp but this one ran an air compressor, power hammer, grinder, drill press, etc. with plenty to spare. The only problem with running one engine is that every tool is down if your power plant fails... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 The only problem with running one engine is that every tool is down if your power plant fails... It is all a bit swings and roundabouts though, at least in that scenario you only have one motor to maintain. As far as the OP is concerned however it is win win. If the Utility/power grid fails he can still use his hammer (as long as he can heat the metal independent of electricity…) Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob S Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 good site re alldays etc. http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/shop/alldays2.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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