Building the 'shop' from 'scrap'

[Zylogue]

I am in the process of building my shop. Currently clearing the land where it will be of trees and scrub and such.  In a former life, it used to be a cattle barn, that burnt down about 12 years ago.  We just bought the place two yeas ago.

The trees I'm cutting down range from 1" saplings to 20" diameter Poplars.  Some of the smaller, straight trees will be used for the wall posts.  Between the posts will be pallets in a 2x2 panel.  One wall will be different, as the 2x2 panel will be centered and slide apart to create the door.  A slanted roof, of those sapplings supporting alternating metal and opaque panels.  Thinking I will put glass windows on the 'high' side, above the palet wall.  Tilt-out to open and help with ventilation.

The most expensive components not already on hand will be the slide rail for the doors and the windows up high.

 

I would appreaciate suggestions and comments on this approach.  I'm in south central Kentucky, near Lake Cumberland. 

Possible changes to the shop that I am already considering:

Same door config, front and back.
Concrete/fiber board as exterior sheeting

 

Thanks for the input!

 

 

[Zylogue]

Another point I should probably mention ...

 

I'm too far away for any power.  So I intend to use some solar panels (NOT the ones from HB or Radio shack) with batteries for internal lighting and a bank of computer fans (I have worked the IT industry for the last 20 years).  And a small gas generator for power tools like buffer/grinder, etc.  Most everything else will be treadle powered.  I don't have the estimated $5k to have power run to the building.

[LawnJockey]

I have one of those Alaskan Mills made by Granberg that attaches to my chain saw.  I used it for cutting 1' x 12" x 10' planks and I was surprised how well it worked.  I was cutting fir and after the first cut is done it took me about 10 minutes per plank.  You use a ripping chain for these cuts.  I think I paid about $250 for it and I am sure they can be found for half that used.

[Zylogue]

LawnJockey - Thanks!  I will look into that.  I would really like to cut those Poplars square!  Would make attaching the pallet panels easier and straighter!

[ThomasPowers]

What kind of foundation? What kind of floor? Popular in damp earth has a VERY SHORT LIFESPAN I built a pole barn for my smithy extension: free creosoted utility poles from the local electrical coop; set 5' in the ground and concreted in. ProPanel steel roofing for the walls and roof that was free---damaged in a huge hail storm + overruns from re-roofing all the buildings in town. I did buy purlins as I could afford them and new SDST screws. Found a couple of used steel trusses on craigslist...Out here in the desert I ran pressure treated 2x6 from pole to pole and filled in with sand/gravel from the local arroyo for the flooring. Bought a used roll up door from another smith and got a commercial "man door" when our church changed out the one they had. Ended up with a 20' wide 30' long with 10' high walls shop extension quite cheaply! Have you talked with your local county extension office on what works for *YOUR* *AREA*?

[Zylogue]

The local electrical co-op will not sell poles, so the plan is to use two of the existing trees that have opportune Y's and to lay one of the cut trees across it.  Then the poles will be suspended in modified 5 gal buckets to get a reasonable depth.  (I have a contact at a grocery deli/bakery who saves their 5 gallon icing buckets.  I will stack two, top to top and seal, then remove the 'bottom' of one to sink the log into.)

 

But I am very interested in other options!  I'm looking at putting a lot of sweat equity into this venture.

[ThomasPowers]

I didn't buy poles; these were 40' pull outs from when they widened the RR tracks; had only been in the ground 10 years which gives them a use life of about 90 more out here. Had to saw them in two to get them hauled out to my place and so had 4 20'rs. Hauled for free and set for free; neighbors/friends. Of course I didn't charge when the BiL of one of them broke a jackhammer bit he needed to do a job over a 3 day weekend the first day. I forged it out and heat treated and got him back using his rented jackhammer. Helping folks out pays off bigtime in my experience! Again I strongly suggest talking to the county extension office!

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Here is my Mad Max 55 gallon drum smithy. Free drums from work.

I would see if there is a small lumber mill in the area. They will need to be dried before using, otherwise you may have unwanted warping, or checking.

Since KY gets more rain than we do -4.5" a year-I would look at Rammed Earth walls that use old tires and dirt.

BUT, that will all depend on what your local building codes allow.

[njanvilman]

As TP said, do NOT put poplar in the ground for poles.  It will rot in a couple of years.  Use the poplar above grade for rafters, studs, framing.  If you cannot get old power poles, it would be worthwhile to buy the treated poles you will need.  Sometimes it just does not pay to go inexpensively.  Your labor is worth something, and I do not think you will want to rebuild your shop every other year.

 

What are you using for roofing?  I have always used the galv-alum metal roofing on all of my buildings.  Bought new, new screws too.  All of my roofs on my buildings will outlive me.  Pay once and forget about it.  Just have to replace a few screws now and then.  Only drawback is the noise in a heavy rain, but I kind of like the sound.

[Glenn]

Rather than putting poles in the ground, could you not put the same pole on a concrete or stone foundation above ground? Place the bottom of the pole on top of the concrete piling to keep it out of the ground moisture.

 

Barns have been on rock footers and have been standing for years in Ky and back east. 

[Zylogue]

NJAnvilman - One of the few purchases I have actually budgeted for is the roofing.  I will be purchasing (unless I can find it free, somewhere) their metal and plastic roofing material. the plastic at the front for lighting purposes. the metal on the rear for shade and to run the smoke stack through.

Glenn - I will consider that as the barn site has old and crumbling concrete walls.  I'm sure therey were sound before the fire that brought down the barn so many years ago.

 

Biggundoctor - I wish I could get drums.  I have several uss for them, not jus in the forge.

 

ThomasPowers - I will be contacting the local mills and utility companies to see what they have to offer.

Thank you all for the comments and the thoughts.  Each is valued.  Keep them coming.  I will be posting photos as I build the place.

The floor will be dirt, for now, though.  Later, I will bring in gravel, probably before I enclose the front wall.  I want to find a 'pick-up trailer' to help make getting and dumping the gravel easier.

[VaughnT]

A great project.

 

For the sliding door hardware, don't bother with the mass-produced track sold at Lowe's and the like.  A length of 1" pipe or flat bar stock will do perfectly well, and all you need to do is make the hangers from some metal bar and pulleys.  You can probably buy a set of "antique" rollers off ebay for a cheap price.

 

Poplar in the ground?  As others have said, that's a horribly bad idea.  There's just no other way to say it than that.  Even cedars don't last for very long if you don't have the right species in the right soil with the right drainage....

 

If you can't get old utility poles from the electric/phone company, definitely invest in pressure-treated 6x6 timbers.

 

Heck, I would invest in the 6x6 timbers and put them on concrete pillars to keep them away from the damp ground.  You can skimp a bit here and there, but the skeleton really does support everything else and needs to be strong.

 

And once it's all said and done, get a nice hit-n-miss engine to drive a belt line.  

[Zylogue]

Was thinking, because of how rural the are is, of possible converting a riding mower engine (14HP) to some kind of drive line engine and to run off of wood gas as I make char coal.  But that is a while away, still.  First the walls and the roof, then I can fill it.

[Glenn]

Why make electric such a major concern?

 

Any engine strong enough to turn a automobile alternator will produce 12v current. You now have lights. Use the cooling fan from a radiator and you have cooling during the summer. Add storage batteries and an inverter and you have 110 v current.

 

As a fellow once said:  Do not build a box, that way you do not have to think outside the box.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Have to side against popular in ground. Stone, tires full of ramed earth, concreat block, good used railroad ties, etc. nothing to stop you from going preindustrial, lots of good smithing was done before Mr. Edisan, Tesla or Ford. With the right desighn you can move a lot of air threw your shop with out using fans, clearstory windows certanly can do that for you and would eliminate the need for clear roofpanels that are easaly damaged by hail and embers (wild land fire, lost a horse barn around hear to embers burning threw the skylights, wile the hay barn survived)
As to the chainsaw mill, insructibles has a detailed build for one, and the Alaskan department of ed teaches how to modify the chains for ripping. Its in their online coriculam (yea the belive in teching kids how to servive) but I bet Frosty or another of the polorbears can help you find it. Basicaly you file down the rakers a bit, and use a mis sized file (i think oversised) to change the tooth angle to get a bigger bight, as you are ripping not cross cuting

[DSW]

Be aware that newer PT posts aren't all created equal either. Most newer PT is ACQ treated and isn't rated for ground contact. I've seen newer PT posts rot out in less than 5 years. Better lumber yards often have the ground contact rated posts. Also ACQ treated lumber is highly corrosive to steel fasteners, You need heavy hot dipped galvanized fasteners or stainless. I've seen normal 16 d nails rust thru in less than 6 months under the right conditions. If you can locate some, the older CCA treated lumber doesn't have these issues. However the use of CCA is extremely limited today because of the arsenic in the process.

 

 

Floors. I've dug, stoned and poured a lot of floors over the years. You might want to do a lot of the prep before you put up the walls. It can be a real pain as well as add a lot of back breaking labor if you have to do the work after the walls go up. We can usually dig, stone and pour a good sized floor in less than a day if it's open. If it's inside, you usually can figure at least 2 to 3 days, if not more, to do the same size floor do to all the additional hand work that is required.

 

 

 

Think long and hard about what you want and where you want to go. The shop I'm in right now was once an old chicken barn at my friends place that was falling down. We rebuilt it using the "no budget" method. Problem is things just got thrown in as the materials showed up. Right now I have a really nice roll up door, but the opening is 1' smaller than the door is. Originally the 6x6 posts supporting the roof were to eventually get replaced by reinforced block columns sat outside the existing wood posts. However since his death, I no longer have easy access to the concrete and equipment to reset the posts. Like so many of the parts of the shop that were "temporary", they are pretty much permanent now. There's a lot of "easy" fixes that could have been done when things went in, that now are a lot more trouble. Lighting is one of the big ones. None of the switches are set up so that they are easy to access as you walk in the shop. Earlier they made a little sense, but today they are hidden behind all sorts of things and a real pain to get to if you have to go inside in the dark.

 

Going cheap, can often be the expensive way to go in the long run.

[Charles R. Stevens]

DSW has a point. This dosnt preclude using salvaged material, just think about how to use wha you have

[ThomasPowers]

Find out if a local railroad bridge is going to be re-done and see if someone over 21 can do a brown pop deal for some timbers off it. Find a local demolition company and talk with them. Talk with roofers too! as I mentioned I have 2 10'x30' walls of hail damaged propanel steel "roofing" and 2 11'x30' roof sections of overrun from large commercial jobs that was free for helping clean up the site. I originally left the ridge open for ventilation as we don't get much rain out here; but I found the thin bar of sunlight to be a pain when crossing the shop so when a friend moved and I helped clean up his place I got the ridge cover I needed from his throw away pile. I don't recall if this was mentioned yet but a shop profits greatly from a lift point or jib crane---or *both*. Might find if a GOB mechanic that's passed had an A frame you could incorporate... Are you native to the area? If so start asking around; Shoot I asked around after church one Sunday and was given an anvil, 40 pounds of welding rod and an elk mount that was too pretty to make into knife handles---gave it on to my Son in Law for his man cave project.

[Glenn]

You can go really cheap and split and flatten 55 gallon drums for a 3 x 6 foot sheet of roofing or wall covering.

 

Thomas, what denomination was the church you went to? (grin)

[njanvilman]

When I was young and had no money, I went the "inexpensive" route.  Needless to say, all of that has now been replaced and done correctly.  I know of a person nearby who built his own house over about 5 years as he could afford it.  He did not want debt, so he saved up to do the shell and roof.  Then as funds became available, windows and doors went in, then the siding.  Eventually you could see the interior get done.  Took time, but no debt.

 

Bottom line, sometimes the cheap way will cost more in the long run.  Save your money and do it right the first time with the correct materials. 

[ThomasPowers]

Episcopal; I'm attending 2 now: one up near my house and shop and one down here near my rental house and job---I'm teaching the Pastor and his wife down here how to smith; though their duties on the VFD seem to interrupt most classes.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Cheap dosnt mean wrong or shody in this case, if you use the materials wisely your good. You can use the poppelur as framing, or the palets for that matter. The pallets can be used as sheathing, tires full of compacted soil or gravel can be used as a foundation, say 2-3 high to get up above the wet. But one can use concreat peers ot groundrated fenceposts with PT sill plate framed above with popular. Again, you dont need store baught, kiln dried lumber to do it right. Just think like a raindrop and a turmite. Dry feet and a dry roof are number one, good sensible framing, round poles are acualy stronger that square of the same size. So just use the material you have smart.

[njanvilman]

By the time you buy concrete, or gravel, or dig holes big enough for tires, it seems as if it would be cheaper, easier, and cost efficient to buy the proper PT 6x6 poles.  Poplar is fine where it will stay dry. 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Tires dont need to be barried, they are 2 1/2' foundations in and of their selves. Think gambion basket. As I dont know the sight conditions, as to post and beam, i would be tempted to sorce creasot fence posts, if one cuts the 8' in half (at $15-18 a peice they are cheaper than 6x6 ground rated PT and last a lot longer, paced 2 1/2'in the ground they should be well below frost line and 18" above to keep the frammin dry. Like blacksmithing, despite opinians to the contrary there is no, one right way to build a safe durable structure. There usualy is one, economical sight aproriat method tho.
I would seggest two things, google "low cost" and "alternitive" building methods as well as "log framing" "timber framing" "pole framinf" "whole tree" framing...
Take a clue from walden, only flaten the sides of the timber that will have siding naile to it, and if its stait enugh, not even then!

[njanvilman]

Creosote use in the ground has been banned for many years.  I do not think you can even buy creosote liquid anymore.

 

Using buried posts and nailing the sill on top does not seem to be a strong way to build a building.  I prefer posts that go down 3' to 4' into the ground, sitting on compacted gravel or concrete, and are part of the frame of the building.