njanvilman Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 A very unique anvil I recently acquired. It appears to have been used to do the welding of wagon tires. It has four different curves for different size diameter tires. A second view showing the different curves. This weighs about 125 lbs. Each "step" is about 3" wide. It appears to be cast iron. It must have been mounted either high up or over a pit of some sort to allow for the wheel circumference. If anyone has any other ideas, shoot. That's the best I can come up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Greetings Josh, I'll just bet that neet new tool was used for re-forming after the tire was welded on the anvil... To complete a tire weld on that cast surface would have been a problem and would more than likely damage the area in the center... I can also see a use for it after the tire was put into the shrinker and bulged out... Just this old Michigan boys 2c... Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted December 17, 2014 Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 After studying the anvil, I think the tire was welded over the center section with the rest of the rim standing upright. The center areas are almost an exact reverse curve of the rest of each diameter. I think the rim was welded, then after reheating, it was used with the rim reversed downward and the welded area was then curved. It seems to make sense to me. They would have to have had a way to move the anvil, or had a pit under however the anvil was mounted. Any other ideas out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 I question the need for a curved anvil to set up a wagon wheel. I've watched dozens of youtube videos with ole-timey smiths welding the tires, and they never seemed to suffer for the lack of a specialized anvil like you've found. All of them use some variation of the london-patter anvil and get the job done quickly. Even in a mass-production setting where hundreds of generic tires are being made every day, I don't see the benefit to an anvil like yours. Are you sure it's cast iron and not cast steel? No sign of a quality steel face plate? An unusual design requiring an oddball mounting system to make a product that can made both quickly and easily on a traditional anvil with a traditional mount.... it just doesn't make sense. Where I could see a cast iron block like that coming in handy would be for making short arc bends that are identical every time. Like you might need when making stair railing finials and such. The anvil could sit on a stump and have the end of the bar lightly hammered to match the needed radii. Not saying that's the case, but it's a sure sight more believable to me than forging wagon wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatfudd Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 It would be interesting to try and determine the circumference of the 4 shapes that could be made on that anvil. That might help answer the question of what it was used for. Since its obviously very rare I could believe it was used for welding tires that some ingenious character invented. That it didn't catch on may be as Vaughn T said most smiths could use their existing anvil just fine and had no need to purchase another specialized tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petere76 Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 How do you find all these items? I'm amazed at your ability to consistently come up with all the antiques you collect. Great work my friend. Happy hunting and a very merry Christmas. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dahlia's Daddy Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Is it possible that the middle depression could've been worn into the surface (possibly made of wrought iron)? You can see the line at the transition from one radii to another where maybe it was a step that got worn down after a lot of heavy use over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted December 17, 2014 Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 The middle sections of the anvil were created when it was made. That area was not "worn" away. I will try to determine what the diameter are. I have many tire irons and will pull a few out of the pile and see what fits. There is not steel top plate on this item. It is cast iron I think. How to find stuff....keep your eyes open and travel around. Actually this piece came from tailgating at the ABANA event in Delaware this summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 I wander if it isnt a srinker in and of its self, tho I can certainly see how it could be used to true a tire. The other thing that comes to mind is in the making of break assemblyes and wheel chocks for desending steep grades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 And please note as per the original post: we are still guessing what it was... If someone pops up and says "Oh yes we used that for steam bending wood" we'll all have egg in our collective beards... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 The progressive radii bring to mind a stepped die for a press or hammer Start you bar at one end and work down to the finished shape? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Does it have any holes in the bottom or other apparent method(s) of mounting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted December 17, 2014 Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 The bottom is solid and smooth. The "anvil" weighs about 120 lbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 OK - so we can probably rule out any type of power hammer or press die. That being said, it is similar to a cast iron swage block in that it would have likely been placed in a support frame. I have nothing factual to add beyond pure speculation - but I agree it was probably a wagon tire tool intended for the buggy trade. It is clear this shape would have helped true up tires more easily than a flat anvil or cone mandrel. Any inward bends could be straightened in the depression then the entire form smoothed over the various radii. It may not have been used to weld rims - only to true up the shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted December 17, 2014 Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 HW Make sense. I hope someone who actually works on tires will chime in here and set us all straight on how it worked and was used. If I am ever out in Pennsylvania Amish country, I might take it with me and try to find a wheelwright' shop and ask an expert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 And as mentioned it might be somebody's "greatest thing since sliced bread" that just never caught on for one reason or another---like body armour in the American Civil War... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 During a certain era of American history they made dedicated tire shrinkers, dedicated tire stretchers, tire rollers, power hammers made specifically for tire welding (as well as general use hammers with a serious nod to tire welding built into the design), and even a hydraulic tire setter. Given all those things they made in order to facilitate iron tire work I don't think it would be out of line to find a tire anvil. Just because you can weld one up on a "standard" anvil doesn't mean there isn't a better way especially if you are doing it all day every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 During a certain era of American history they made dedicated tire shrinkers, dedicated tire stretchers, tire rollers, power hammers made specifically for tire welding (as well as general use hammers with a serious nod to tire welding built into the design), and even a hydraulic tire setter. Given all those things they made in order to facilitate iron tire work I don't think it would be out of line to find a tire anvil. Just because you can weld one up on a "standard" anvil doesn't mean there isn't a better way especially if you are doing it all day every day. I worked at a place in Boston Mass that had been a blacksmith shop continuously from 1917. The last owner remarked how blacksmiths would spend their entire lives making specialty single use tools then all the tools would be thrown away someday because no one else could ever figure out what use they had performed. I have handled hundreds if not thousands of such tools over the years, having bought out the last remnants of a goodly number of small shops over the years. Back in the day, it wasn't uncommon for single use tools to be cast, almost as likely as a manufactured product. Being cast iron does not indicate that a device is without doubt mass produced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted December 20, 2014 Author Share Posted December 20, 2014 This is not a Fisher anvil, but responding to arftist, he is correct. Fisher would make a "one off" custom anvil if the customer requested a different design than what they had. There were many small foundries that would cast what ever pattern came in the door. There are still some small foundries left that will do limited run castings off of customer supplied patterns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dahlia's Daddy Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Small "job shop" type foundries use to be commonplace actually, until a majority of them couldn't compete with the mass producers. It could even be a possibility that a smith made their own tool for all we know. Now foundries are typically down to a science where alloys, heat control and pattern production are concerned. Sand cores can be produced using the "3d printing" technology using core sand as the printing medium and there are alloys we have now that no one would have probably even known of 20 or 30 years ago. It is amazing how far metalworking has come in the last 100 years. I feel that even 100 years ago I couldn't learn all there was to learn about metalworking at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted December 20, 2014 Author Share Posted December 20, 2014 Dahlia's Daddy That is the great thing about what we do. Explore new techniques and materials, learn from our contemporaries, and look back at what has been done and learn from them. When I am asked about my background, after telling them that I taught woodworking and metalworking for 37 years, I explain that I consider myself just a beginner who is still learning something new everyday. This IFI forum is wonderful by bringing together the collective ideas of thousands of like minded people who freely share their time and knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 "Lyfe so Shorte, the Crafte so Long to Learn" It takes about 1000 hours to become competent in a skill, and 10,000 hours to master it. YMMV. Someone once postulated the last time a person could have learned "everything there was to know" in one culture in a lifetime was @ 1000 AD. I think that he was biased towards the written word, thus vastly underrating our ancestors diverse store of hands-on skills and oral knowledge. I personally think that it was probably closer to 10,000 BC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 DD, all that you say is true, but also we see quality suffering as well. Look at a new castiron skillet. They are 1/2 again of moor thicker than those of 75 years ago. I just traded my mother back her uncle Hennery's skillet for a new lodge becuse it is lighter (thinner) now you cant throw an old one in the fire, as they ae prone to warp, but the ladies apretiate them. This is part of the reason (i belive) lodge has begine marcketing stamped steel pans, as was the "camping" standard for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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