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Welding Large stock


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I'm looking for some advice/recommendations on welding some large stock

The project involves welding a pair of 1.5" thick plates to the back of a 12' plow blade. these plates weigh around 200lb each and will be welded on edge with a contact area 1.5" wide and 12" long. the mounting spot on the blade is .25" thick and everything is mild structural steel. I have a vintage Craftsman 180amp(25volt) AC welder to accomplish this with.

My welding training consists of a trade school course 30 years ago but I do weld steel up to .05" thick fairly regularly and the welds have always held up well even in high stress applications.

 

I have my own thoughts on how to accomplish this but would like some input from someone with more experience then me. I'm looking for both rod and procedure recommendations.

 

Thank you,

 

Richard Chase

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can we try again and check you numbers? the Paul Bunion size 12 foot plow blade 1.5 inch thick, with 1/4 inch mounting spot... then move on to mention 5/100 thick in high stress application. ( sound like sheet metal to me that thin)  and a 180 amp 25 volt AC welder?  I am very confused.

 

I see you are in Maine, and in the states I know of 460-480 volts, 240-220 volt, 208 volt and 110-125 volt ratings.  never heard of 25 volts.  Maybe I have not had enough coffee yet.

 

 So what I am saying is, it seems you have numbers all over the place, but expect a clear answer from someone on what to do with it ?

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Sorry if I was unclear, let me try again.

 

The welder is 220V 31A from the power grid and 180A(max) 25V AC at the welding rod.

 

The 1.5” plate are the quick disconnect mounts for the Cat loader it will be used on and the .25” thick material on the plow that the plates will be welded to is 12” x 2” x .25” C channel running the width of the plow. The plow itself forms a large C as well so there is additional strength there as well and there will be some addition bracing, but making a good weld at the 1.5” x 12” mounting point is my primary concerns do to the mass of the plates.

 

Does that clear it up at all?

 

 

Thanks,

Richard Chase

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Not all AC stick machines are created equal. Some will run 7018 AC just fine, others never will. Some have  a preference for one rod over another. Company "A" 7018AC will run just fine, Company "B"'s rods won't. It's usually the lower end units that have the most problems, but I've seen a few bigger industrial units have issue, particularly older Hobarts.

 

7014 is a good choice for AC machines that do not like 7018. It's almost as strong as 7018, but not quite as ductile. It's also a fairly easy rod to use for people who aren't quite as good with stick. 7024 is an even easier rod to run, but it can only be used in the flat position, and isn't readily available most places.

 

Size wise, I'd have to look up what amps 1/8" rods in both 7018/7014 use in AC. I know on average Ac settings are higher than DC settings for the same rod. 125 amps DC+ is usually about mid range on 1/8" in both 7018 and 7014. I'd suspect 180 amps AC should allow you to run 1/8" rods. If not, 3/32" rods could be used, but you'd have to make more passes to get the same amount of fill. Ball park range on 3/32" 7018/7014 in DC+ is about 95 amps. Again AC usually is a bit higher. Most companies will list suggested settings for their rods on the box. 5/16" rods are probably too big for your machine.

 

 

 

When I can get stuff nice and clean, brand new 7018 is usually my go to rod for repairing our plows using stick. In the middle of a storm when conditions are less than ideal, usually it's 6010/11 for it's ability to deal with rust, paint, snow and ice to stick things back together long enough to get thru a storm. ( I'm not a real big fan of laying in a puddle of slush and water to run an electric grinder for prep for some reason...) If I can get things semi clean, then 7014 is my 2nd choice, mostly because I keep it on hand and it doesn't have as much of the issues 7018 can have with moisture ( kind of hard usually to get the plow 100% dry, even in the townships shop if they will let us use it for repairs.) Usually after a storm repair, I'll wait for a nice day and grind out most of the 6010/11 weld and redo it with new 7018.

 

I will admit my machines are all AC/DC or DC only, and I almost never run AC stick. DC runs so much nicer.

 

 

I'm also trying to understand your application. I'm guessing wear shoes of some type. I will tell you that welding to cutting edges on plows seldom works. That steel isn't mild, it's abrasion resistant or impart resistant steel. Usually the steel cracks just outside the weld area.

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Thanks for all the information, it sounds like 7018 is the consensus, I have used it with this machine but it has been a while. It was never my favorite rod as it can be a pain to get the arc started with this machine but seems to weld fine once you do. I still have about 20 lbs. of the stiff sitting in a homemade drying box but it is over 20 years old and I’m told the shelf life for it is very long.

 

Clean won’t be a problem, the plates I’m welding on will be freshly machined at the joint and the plow still has its original paint at the welding area so it will clean you easily with a grinder.

 

No one has mentioned it but with the size of these plates and the limited capacity of my welder would preheating the plates be in order?

 

So what does someone do with expired 7018 rod?

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Richard Chase

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I checked the 7018 rods I have and they still look fine so I'll bake a hand full and run some test beads to see how they behave. It will be good if I can use them up instead of buying new rod.

 

Thanks for all the help,

 

 

Richard

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What hasn't been mentioned is getting the plates welded together minimizing warpage.  I'm sure someone with more experience can give you better advice on this,  but I would try to get everything tacked together solid and equalize the welding stresses  by working a little on each side and work at each end and the middle. 

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Ah... It's not a plow, but a snow box for a loader and your steel are ears for the quick connect.

 

If you are still using the bucket with the box, the square push bars will take all the load and transfer it back to the bucket. The added piece simply makes it easier to locate and hook up the box. In that case, you really don't need a huge amount of weld to hold the ears in place. The welds simply have to hold well enough to support the weight of the box until it's secured in the bucket.

 

If the ears are for a true QD hookup where you roll out of the bucket and pick up the box, I think you are going to have issues possibly. No matter how much weld you toss on, the box will no longer transfer the force back to the heavy bucket thru the square bush bars. Instead all the force ( and leverage) will transfer to the two points in the light 1/4" and the 1/4" steel will buckle and fail at some point.

 

 

Remember welds are no stronger that the thinner member. It's the 1/4" skin of the box that is going to determine the strength of the weld, not the heavy bars. The heavy steel may keep the bars themselves from deforming and spread the load over a larger area slightly, but that's it. A bit of preheat, won't hurt, but it can make working on the parts a pain. Hot heavy steel is tough to manipulate into place, and pumping a ton of heat into the pieces in place is going to mess up the paint something bad. In this application, it's not really going to make a huge difference. 180 amps should be more than enough power to compensate for the heavier steel.

 

One comment I will make is I wonder if your skill set is high enough that this question even matters. The reason I ask is the question of rod type is pretty basic. As sitting, almost all the welds will be out of position, mostly vertical, but some overhead, with only a few tiny spots in the flat position. From experience, most "inexperienced" welders ( those who ask these sorts of questions) that I teach, can't weld vertical up. To do this right with 7018 you will need to run vertical up. To weld vertical you really need to know how to read the puddle well, Most guys can do a semi decent job flat/horizontal by running "timing " patterns, but that will not work vertical. You'll either have to drop the amps way down, which will increase your sticking issues as well as give poor penetration, or simply make  a mess. Being able to run good vertical up welds, separates those that can weld from those who just think they can.

 

If vertical welds aren't your best area, I'd probably locate the ears in the current position, and tack them. Then use the loader to roll the box in such a way that most of these welds can be done flat if you are not good at welding vertical. Down side is with the box rolled this way, it's usually not possible to keep it locked to the loader the way it normally will be used. That can cause issues if things want to move or get shifted. Make darn sure to check and double check as you go to make sure things are all lined up properly.  I'd roll the box and do a few 2" welds to lock things in position, then roll it back and double check everything still lines up, before going for a full weld. Me, I'd probably leave it as is and do the welds vertical. If possible welding most of the stuff with the box mounted to the bucket if possible to maintain alignment.

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These are true quick connect mounts and when the friend who asked me to do this first brought it up I shared your concern that the whole thing could fold in the middle but he assured me the he knows of quite a few if this exact unit with this conversion done and they hold up fine. 

 

They are now tacked in place well enough that I don't have to worry about anything moving around during the rest of the welding.

 

I'll post an update when I'm done. 

 

 

Thanks again,

 

 

Richard

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I spotted a cat loader with a home made stone bucket with those exact same quick release couplers on it last Wednesday.

 

There seems to be plenty of room to weld some small gusset plates to the RHS / channel to spread the load and stiffen the structure, the top edge looks a little vulnerable to tearing away as the bucket is crowded or pressure is applied to the bottom edge. get some nice structural angles on a bit of plating around that area and it should be perfectly serviceable for years.

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  • 3 months later...

I have welded these same type of quick connect ears on several loader buckets, no doubt those ears will see a lot of dynamic stress. Be sure your welds are sound. if you have doubts don't be afraid to grind it out and go again. warping shouldnt be an issue unless you find yourself having to reweld it a couple times. if you can roll that bucket flat that would definatly make it easier for you. Grinding out the slag between each pass will help on your next pass application as well.

I've only used 7018 DC for that, but I've used 7018 on a friends AC machine with good results 

 

Good luck

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Not a welder by any means, but as I see the bracket is being welded to the reinforcement material (Chanel and angle) that the ariginal attachment hardware is mounted to, I wouldn't think warping the blade is an issue, nor integrity. Certainly clean it up and use a weed burner to heat up the big chunk. As a amiture I certainly try to role things around to make welding easy (or I call in a favor)

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Alaric,

You are going thick to thin. Preheat the thick stock. First pass use 6011, it has good penetration qualities. Pay attention to the corners as the thin will fail at that point. Clean the 6011 pass, grind it down if it's irregular. Finish the welf with 7018. If you have trouble restarting the 7018 use a tap plate or a file to break the hard coating on the end of the rod before you continue, also make sure to clean up where you stopped before you restart.

Because you have a strong thick hanger going on a relatively thin base. If you get any flex, consider an angled gusset to strengthen the pice and reduce any flexing. Good luck with the project, post a few pics of the finished product if you can.

Peter

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