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Question for the experienced, anvil build


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Ok question for the experienced guys on here.
I'm thinkin about buyin a piece of A36 steel from a steelyard that just came available to make my anvil out of. Dimensions are as follows

11"x 27"x 4.5"
Weight: 387 lbs
$200

Going to turn it on its side and weld a 1/2 piece of grader blade on it for my face. Then the local tech school is going to mill it flat and mill a horn on it. Drill it for the hardy insert and pritchel hole. For free!!
What are the thoughts of the masses on this?
Is this worth undertaking?
Do I use the wear plate?
Or just the block and do a super quench on the face?

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If the plate is just welded around the edges then the majority of the face will be dead.  Plus the grader blade is high carbon which means that the welder will need to follow proper preheat/post heat procedures or the weld will fail.  The better way would be to surface with a hard facing rod.  The cheapest rods would be a nicromang since this type will machine down but work hardens nicely.

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My school of thought would be to mill flat the block edges and both sides of the wear plate, so both would be perfectly flat. Then have my welding school teacher do the welds and the plugs. Take it back to the machine shop for final milling and shaping. Going to have an 8" horn and a 2" step for chisel work should have about 16-1/2"x 4-3/8 face. 5/8 pritchel, 1" hardy hole

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Save the $200. Your already half way to the purchase price of a good anvil. 

 

If you have the extra disposable income, then buy the block of A36 and go for the modifications. 

 

Add your location to your profile and you may be surprised how close other blacksmiths may be to your location. They may allow you to test out their anvils and blocks of steel in their smithy.

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Many folks get uptight about anvils, stating this or that quality gives this or that result. Being down here in Mississippi one could be thinking these country bumpkins should be happy with a rock. But being here has also given me the advantage to meet some rather talented smiths from around the country coming by to visit some of our notable instructors. One of our teachers uses a so-and-so rebounding anvil and it is okay, while another uses one that you may think is dead as a doorknob, for what that is worth. Where I am going with this is: Properly using the anvil should be hot metal being displaced by the hammer.

 

SO why do we make a fuss? Maybe its like bragging rights.  Most everyone feel that a more rebounding anvil is more efficient than a dead one. I feel that way too. But I hate....HATE...a noisy anvil. That ring is supposed to indicated that the anvil is really hard thusly reflecting (rebounding) energy, making your work more efficient. Lyle Wynn uses an anvil that is quiet as a church mouse and at the end of his day plenty of work has been produced.

 

It is about what you want to use. Now since I have more experience I could use the push arm of a bulldozer's blade for an anvil and produce acceptable work. We all know about the efficiencies.

 

Maybe this year I will take a piece of steel like the gentleman above brings to bear and with one piece do an elaborate Rob Gunter surfacing job while leaving another natural... to find out how well the hard surfacing does. That could really stir up a mess of information.

 

David G

 

 

carry on

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I get that Timothy, money is most definately a factor and with this being a hobby and not a money producing operation, I'm willing to spend a little on an anvil. With that being said that amount is 200. I'd like a bigger working surface and 2 of 3 hundred won't buy a decent ferriers anvil that's just not what I want. 5-6 hundred for a sizable anvil just isn't in the budget.
All the machining and welding will be done at the local tech school for no charge.

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Funny my scrap yard would sell me that piece for US$77.40

 

Don't know where you are at but I bought a mint condition 515# Fisher for $350 and I'm not old enough to get back before the $1/# "going rate"

 

I think if you had the money in hand you could dig up a good anvil---if you dug hard enough.

 

OTOH  The Friday evening Demonstrator at Quad-State was using an anvil he had built  1050 pounds, double horned HSLA 100 body  (IIRC) and hardfaced the face *beautifully*.  He was working on forging 16# sledges on it; but it was prettier than even the pattern welded hammer he was working on...

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actually I think it would be a great experience. and isn't that what its all about, push comes to shove? haven't each and everyone of us heard that rhetoric about our forged work?

just thinking,,, I'd heard it before.

oh, and your process ought to work fine.

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Thanks for the compliments on the anvil Thomas. I certainly do enjoy it.

 

As far as anvil ring is concerned, it is (or was) a crude method of quality control, but didn't really have much to do with face hardness. It was used to ensure that the forge welds holding the anvil pieces together were good. A "dead" anvil would indicate incomplete welding of the face or other parts which likely would result in early failure of the anvil. This same method of quality control used to be used to verify good forge welds in chain and is used even to this day when evaluating anchors (I know this having just had a conversation with the chief metallurgist for the American Bureau of Shipping on the subject this morning).

 

As far as fabricating the anvil as described above is concerned, it certainly could be done. If it were my project, I'd probably try to weld on the horn and carve the heel from the block described (assuming a London pattern anvil is desired). Trying to carve both out of this block would result in a fairly short anvil. Also, you'd be surprised how much metal you lose when you carve out the horns from a solid plate. If you cut out the  entire anvil from plate I'd expect you to loose about 40% of the starting weight of the plate.

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I would just weld hard face the the block grind it smooth and use it as a block anvil. this way you have maximum mass.  I would then make a bickiron and use that as my horn and heel.  I would put a hardie hole as a side weldement on the block anvil by milling a square slot in a cube of steel say 2" square with a 3/4 slot in it. 

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Welcome aboard Woodweavil, glad to have you. If you put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the IFI gang live within visiting distance.

 

Good luck with the grader edge, it's abrasion resistant so it's mot going to mill, surface grind eventually but not mill. The closest thing to decent grinding I've managed to get is with A cup stone at red heat. Room temperature and it will eat grinding stones like cheap candy. Grader edges are MADE to drag across asphalt and NOT grind away, sure it does but you have to almost stand a Champ 780 or Cat 14H on it and put a shift's worth of heavy blading on it and you CAN kill an edge in a couple shifts.

 

Pull the specs on Vascowear and see what they say about welding and machining. . . NADA last time I looked. That said you can weld it if you preheat it to 500-600f and let it cool slowly.

 

I've been intending to try putting a good face on an ASO I was given with grader edge but I was going to silver solder it.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Thanks guys I'm actually thinkin about omitting the horn and maybe do a taper instead. I have a 3" step shaft that I could actually have turned to clean it up and weld it on. I plan on doing a wide variety of projects with this anvil. Starting with the anvil itself, then some knife blades, tools, hooks to hang my CI collection. Some strap hinges. And whatever tickles our fancy. My dad is 74 and This is something that he has wanted to do for many many years. Just no one to do it with him, so I'm doing this as much for him as for me. I enjoy metal working as much as woodworking. So I'm excited to get started. Also im in Big Rock Tennessee. Close to ft campbell ky

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It's really a tough call because you're not going to be into the whole thing for a lot of money.  As it sits, it would be a very decent anvil, with a 11"x4.5" face that's just about perfect for everything you could ask, and the mass would all be under the hammering zone.

 

With access to the school's shop, I wouldn't bother trying to cut a horn out of the block because it takes far more time and energy than simply welding a horn on.  Any school operation will probably have round stock that's big enough and it could be really nice to have a horn that is concentric.  Turning one in the lathe and then welding it into position would be super fast and easy, relatively.

 

I would also consider cutting in a square taper heel.  They are very handy for a lot of things.  While it would reduce the weight of the anvil, it would do so in a way that also contributes to the usability of the anvil.  Any weight lost would be recouped by adding the horn and some feet.

 

Price???  I think $200 is a bit steep for a chunk of A36 that size, but you gotta deal with the cards in hand.  I'd definitely rather have said chunk of mild steel than a farrier's anvil.  I despise farrier anvils.

 

Welding a grader blade on top?  No.  

 

The quality of the weld won't be anywhere near the quality you'd get just by using some hard-facing rods.  If you have access to a good welder, simply give him a box of hard-facing rods and have him lay down a good bed.  You'll end up with something around 55 on the Rockwell scale, and it's a lot easier than attaching a grader blade to the face.

 

A step down for a chiseling table?  Absolutely unnecessary.  The easiest thing to do is use a mild steel saddle so you can chisel anywhere you want, depending on the size and shape of what you're chiseling.  It's very easy to make a protective saddle out of sheet metal (soup can).

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Woodweavil,

Having worked on and owned smaller (80-ish pound) anvils, and worked on and owned larger (200-300 pound) anvils, let me tell you that it is not so much size that matters, as the mounting job. Buy you a 100-150 pound anvil, talk to David Gaddis about how to properly build a stand, and then bolt or stake that stand down to the floor or ground like you are prepping for a tornado.

I've literally seen a 1000 pound anvil start to walk if it's stand because it was not mounted well, while I've also seen a little 80 pound anvil more solid than anything because it was fastened down correctly.

Having said that, making a 200-300 pound anvil on your own would be a fun project.

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If the plate is just welded around the edges then the majority of the face will be dead.  Plus the grader blade is high carbon which means that the welder will need to follow proper preheat/post heat procedures or the weld will fail.  The better way would be to surface with a hard facing rod.  The cheapest rods would be a nicromang since this type will machine down but work hardens nicely.

 

Nicromang rod will grind down to a smooth finish, then you can take an air hammer and pein it till it is a harder than hens teeth.  Trying to get full penetration welding on a top plate isn't something that is easy or even necessary.  Its making the job harder, just build it up with the high manganese rod and work harden it.  You have a lovely start on a decent anvil, don't ruin it fixating on the idea you need a top plate.  Top plates were for when they forged the body out of wrought iron.  Whatever that steel is it will work fine for an anvil, do a little hardfacing and grind it up, and then work harden it... 

 

AR400... meaning abrasion resistant armour plate, I have heard absolutely nothing good about trying to weld that stuff...  Use that as your cut plate saddle.  If you have access to the full shop of the school you can make all kinds of hardy tools and furniture for the anvil. don't bother with a shelf, there again it was a function of the wrought iron bodied anvils. They can be useful but so can having your horn flat to the face of the anvil...

 

AND I do really think what you have done so far looks great

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