Hardy Tool Suggestions?

[intrex]

I recently got a new anvil that is much larger than my original that I have had since I started smithing The new 309 anvil is amazing to work on but all of my hard tools are pretty much useless on it because of the larger hardy hole.  I tried making a new hot cut this weekend but failed miserably.  I was able to make my own tools for the old anvil with a 3/4" hardy (I think) with no problem.  

The new hardy hole is a huge 1 3/8" inches.  For the hotcut I started out with 3" round stock.  It came from the shaft of some industrial equipment that I got for free from a client.  I don't think it is mild steel but probably something like 1040.  

The main problem is that I don't think I can get stock this large hot enough in my forge.  I have an old rivet forge which I lined with masonry cement and formed a round fire box along the bottom around the blower outlet.  This works great for small work and I usually end up burning things very easily if I don't pay attention.  I had the forge packed all the way to the brim with the fireball as big as it could possibly get and after 15 minutes off dantes enferno level fire I wasn't able to get the stock up to yellow.  The best I could do was slightly bright orange.  I had a striker using a 10lb sledge and we still had a really hard time getting the stock to tapper down enough to make a long shank.  

Are there any tricks for working with stock this big other than getting a power hammer :)?  Are there any general guidelines for stock sizes you should use for making your own hardy tools?  I am also a little worried about the amount of force that was put on the hardy hole when forging the tool into the hardy hole while hot.  

[Glenn]

Think angle iron or tubing and build a shim to bring the large hardie hole down to the size of your top tools.

Let us call it 3 inch square. If you are comfortable with 1/2 inch square then 1 inch stock is 2 times as wide and 2 times as tall so that makes it 4 times the volume of the 1/2 inch square stock. It takes 4 times the heat (or more) to get 1 inch square stock hot. 

If you use 3 inch square you have 6 times the width and 6 times the height or 36 times the volume of 1/2 inch square stock. It takes 36 times the amount of heat (or more) to get 3 inch square stock hot.

Was your fire twice as large, then you are not even close. You need to build a MUCH larger fire and let the metal soak up a LOT of heat before you start forging. 

[DSW]

I'm with Glen, I'd look at shimming your hardy hole, assuming the existing tooling isn't so small it just drops thru. If that's the case you might need to think about something more along the lines of a bolster. Say a 1/2" thick plate say 3x3 to span the hole with a piece of 1 1/2" angle ground down to fit the hardy hole, drifted to 3/4" to take your existing tooling. that would give you a nice solid support for the tools and fit the new anvil.

[Rashelle]

I agree with the above. I needed to use some of my 1" bottom tools in a hardy about the size of yours. So I grabbed a piece of scrap wood, made a wedge, tapped it in the bottom up the hole along side the hardy wedging it in when needed. Made sure it was long enough to hook out. Temporary measure for a quick solution. You don't need 3" diameter stock for a 1 3/8" hole. Just something slightly larger then the hole. Or near size and upset to slightly larger. Bolsters and shim stock would work too. You could make an inverter U out of flat stock with lips, stick the U into the hole lips up catching the sides, place your tooling into the U. Effectively making a hardy shank sleeve.

[Crazy Ivan]

I have some hardy tools that are too large and some that are too small. I did make a bolster plate to make/accept these tools but before that I just clamped the shank into my post vise and used it there. Depending on the height of your vise (assuming you have one) it can be awkward to use (typically too high) but you can make a box to stand on while using it. 

[intrex]

Thanks for the suggestions, 

 

I will work on some type of bolster plate or shim to use the existing tools for the immediate futre.  I really enjoy making my own tools and will probably give it another go when I can find some smaller stock that may work.  I have some jack hammer breaker bits but even they are too small.  Maybe I will give a go at upsetting the breaker bit ends enough to work.  

[SJS]

The other trick you can use is to make your rivet forge deeper! You could use 1/8 x 6 and bend a ring or C that fits inside your rivet pan. To do larger stock you need a deeper fire. You could use DRY fire brick, or angle iron. I would water the edges if the fire with a ring made of thin sheet, and would NOT water a fire built up with bricks!!! No one wants a hot brick spalling into your face!!!

[VaughnT]

Buy some square tubing that's the right size and forge it down by pounding in the sides.  This will make it fit the large hardy hole, and it can then be welded onto the bottom of the tool.  Hiring a welder to tack the stem onto the tool is faster and cheaper than trying to forge solid stock down to size.

 

Another option would be to simply cut the stem out of the stock with a hacksaw or bandsaw.  While it might be a chore, at least you're not burning up all that fuel for the forge.  Reducing the size of the stock with a saw will also reduce the amount of fuel needed to bring it to forging temp so you can tweak the shape.

[Macsen]

Go to a bigger forge and get a couple of strikers, THAT"S a good time!

[Francis Trez Cole]

trying to forge 3" stock with out a striker of power hammer is a lot of work. Use you old anvil for the tooling you have no reason to reinvent the wheel. I use 2 anvils in my shop daily. or you could make up a plate with a 3/4" hole in it and weld to the under side tube of angle iron to hold it square in the new hardie hole.

[Charles R. Stevens]

I get stupid and play with large stock buy hand, rivet forges are desined for rivets, so "S" hooks and other small projects work just fine. 3' needs a deaper fire as well as more air. Yellow heat and a good soak. You have a bigger anvile, time for a bigger forge.
Seting down large stock goes so much easier with butchers, set hamers and fullers, earlery their was a thread talking about making hand sledges in to flaters, this is a project were a 2 1/2 pound butcher, set hammer, flatere and 1 1/2" top and bottom fuller come in handy. 10# hammer and a striker is a luxery, don't abuse it. Belive me, one handing a 14# sledge is no fun.
If your striker is skilled, grinding a half round strait pein on your sledge and working over the horn works, but its beter to use tooling with the uninisiated.

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Intrex, I am basically lazy .. Consider stock removal in your large square stock for the hardi hole.. A porta ban saw works just fine than true up on the anvil .. Just an old boys 2c. Forge on and make beautiful things...Jim

[Damion78]

I would think that making the stem larger on the tools to fit or forming some sort of shim would be the most efficient way to go about it instead of making all new tools. I personally would make the change to the tools so that a shim did not need to be fit every time a tool was changed out as sometimes time is precious.

[Avadon]

I get this question quite a lot in my business as this is primarily what I do, make various hardy tools for the last 6 years. I've even made a lot of custom 1-1/8 and 1-3/8 hardy tools for customers. That is certainly one way to go if you want to be a truist. Otherwise shimming is going to be the order of the day as everyone said here.

To me it really comes down to how many hardy tools you think you want for the work you want to do. If all you need is a couple of hardy tools then I'd stick with the original hardy size and either make them myself , if you have the skills and ability, or buy them from a company like ours. I don't even charge the difference since I normally stock that material for hardy posts. But if you're thinking you want a large array of hardy tools then I'd try to figure out something similar to a permanent shim down to 1" so you can get tools from anywhere and everywhere.

I should mention that even if you do make them yourself they can be time consuming and expensive. Look at a really good custom pair of tongs, not cheap. Hardys are the same way for the really good ones. The reason being is the material used, the advanced levels of welding (Mig/Tig) experience needed, and also plenty of sanding and polishing on striking surfaces. It's like detaililng your own car vs someone else doing it. Either way there's going to be a lot of sweat equity. ;-)

There are sooooo many types of hardy tools and I've even invented a lot of custom shapes for people particular projects. For me, when I purchase hardys it comes down to usage. You can find so many cast iron ones for nothing on ebay, those might work if you just want to start with the basic shapes. They are very soft and can wear out quick, especially if your heat runs out. If you already know what work you'll be doing, know the size, height, material, etc. you're working with then spend the money and get tools made of high carbon steel or chrome steel which will virtually never wear out.

That's my 2cents from the guy who's welded hardys day in and day out.
 

-Damion78, I also live in Redmond (well just outside) cool to see someone local in the thread.

[petere76]

Great move on getting your new larger anvil. Now think about fabricating yourself a new forge. You will be well served by having a good forge and a decent blower. You can buy one of the commercial cast fire pots and a blower. The rest you can beg borrow or barter for and fabricate yourself. Check out the forge designs. Good luck.

Peter