Swing the Hammer/Standing at the Anvil?

[SReynolds]

How do you stand @ the anvil? The popular blacksmithing book everyone reads says to stand directly at the anvil, right along side of it one foot is under the heel. (The othe foot sligtly back from the horn)

 

Your head is bent downward and directly overtop the anvil face. Hold the work lengthwise across the top of the anvil face. Swing the hammer up next to your head/ear....thus your head is tilted slightly away from the hammer arch.

 

It doesn't mention anyting about alternative stances. This is the one to use.

 

I personally would never suggest the above method to anyone, but we all differ slightly in technique. Does anyone actually stand like that and swing the hammer up past your ear.....standing directly next to and leaning directly over the top of the anvil??????

 

Not at all how it was demonstrated to me.

[rockstar.esq]

There's more than one school of thought on that.  For that matter, there's no "standard" anvil so the form is going to vary by necessity.  A continential "double horned" anvil on a stand is used differently than the Japanese swaybacked block at ground level.

 

Bick left or right is a point of some contention on it's own but differences in form can be attributed to where the hardy hole is as well.  On lots of "London pattern" anvils the hardy hole is at the heel, Mine is in the base of the horn which seemed odd to me until I saw that double horn anvils often put the hardy hole next to the round horn.

 

Getting back to your question, I'm a novice and find myself struggling to make things straight and true if I don't line my body and perspective up with the work I'm doing.  So if I'm doing a half faced blow to set down a shelf that must be square to the stock length  I'm typically looking from heel to horn with by body roughly 45 degrees to the anvils axis.  Conversely, if I'm drawing a point I tend to be looking down the length of the stock to keep it perpendicular to the horn or anvil's edge.  I also tend to look overtop of the stock when punching, chiseling, twisting, or cutting with the hardy.

 

I must have picked up that habit with conduit bending.  If you give yourself witness lines to line everything up, it's amazing how precise you can be with fairly crude implements (and practice).

[SJS]

For lighter work I do stand very close to the anvil and my face is generally pretty much directly over the face of the anvil, unless I am working off the near edge. If I am working over the far edge then I tend to lean over the anvil even more:-) For heavy forging i will try and stand up more, but the hammer often whips by my ear or higher. 30years of blacksmithing, and I've placed in more than few forging contests so it works for me;-)

[Roy Ubu]

When you are writing an instructional book, you might be tempted to make instructions for every little thing, even those things you don't necessarily have a formula for. I think most people simply find the most comfortable position to deliver the blow as accurately as possible, using the part of the anvil that will give the best result. I have stood on the anvil and driven a long piece of heavy stock between my feet onto the face to upset the end. This posture is far from matching the one you describe. The main caution I would make is to avoid bending down too close to the work. There is a danger of taking a blow from a rebounding hammer in the forehead. This can be painful, not to mention embarrassing if there are witnesses.

[Frosty]

All the old books I've read tend to believe you'll find their method the superior once you've tried it. It's part of the old apprenticeship philosophy. You WILL do it THIS way no other is correct!

 

I do show students how to hammer from stance to grip to swing but they're not or else instructions. Part of my schpiel goes like this. Don't lay your thumb on the handle top. Hold the handle between your thumb and the first knuckle of your index finger so it pivots. Address the anvil in a comfortable, stable stance so the hammer face lays on the work with your arm just short of full extension. What healing and toeing is, what it means and how to correct. Addressing the anvil is as necessary: side, horn or tail, all have their reason and purpose.

 

On and on but that's my gig, not THE way. Everybody is different, nothing always works and there is darned near nothing that can be done only one way. Different paths to the end is part of what makes this an art.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[SmoothBore]

I seem to use a different position for nearly every job.

 

.

[gote]

SReynolds.

In my view you are quite right in questioning that description. Of course there is not one only position and it is really quite ridiculous by the author of the book if he prescribes this stance as the one and only. It depends upon the anvil, what you are doing and who you are. There are quite a lot of anvils out there with no heel (like mine) and many stand on a stump of an old tree that is so wide that you cannot get your foot under it (mine do).

 

If you are "moving iron" you want a stance that is comfortable and gives you control over your movement. This means thet you adjust your stance so it is easy to do what you want to do.

 

I would rarely hold my head over the anvil. The bent position would feel bad on my spine and would hamper my swing. I want my body to be in a position that allows me full movement. I really cannot imagine how this position would give an efficient swing of the hammer. I swing with the whole body not with the wrist, shoulder or elbow only.

 

How high you lift your hammer depends upon the weight of the hammer, the length of the handle, where you hold on the handle, if the anvil has the right height, how much rebound you get (and that depends upon your anvil and the piece you are forging) and and and. Fortunately there is no need to consider all these factors. We adjust automatically unless we think too much about the details. "If it works it is right".

 

Personally I never start the hammer at the height of my ear but of course I do not bend over the anvil. The long distance would make me less accurate and I do not feel that the extra distance adds significantly to the speed of the hammer head and that speed is the important issue. It would slow me down and I want to get as many blows in as possible before the next heat.

 

The technique also depends upon what type of hammer you use. I (nearly) always use a cross pein hammer. If I am stretching a piece of iron, for every heat, I first use the pein and then flatten the wavy surface with the flat part so it is flat again when it goes into the fire. This way the iron moves more in the direction of the hammer handle and less towards the sides. Obviously this means that if I want a piece to become wider I hold it perpendicular to the way I hold it if I want it too become longer.

 

I do not know what "The popular blacksmithing book everyone reads" is but in my view this advice is very bad indeed.

 

Cheers

Göte

[notownkid]

I would think it all depends on a number of items a lot of them your physical body design.  Some of us are build long in the legs and short in the trunk or the opposite, some have very long arms some short arms.  Go to the store to buy a dress shirt to see these differences.  Then you have physical limitations of your body as it gets older and well used or over used. Hammer weight,  what you are doing.  All in all it comes down to making taking someone's advise on where to start and modify it as you get experienced and learn.  To have a book or instructor tell you this is the only way is foolish at best.  Novice or experienced you learn everytime you forge something new. 

 

I built a new stock for a target rifle a number of years ago.  I shot it at least twice a week year around.  I got it about right and often would come home and make a modification to it and then shoot it some more.  Took a year before I finished it and put a finish on.  Continued making changes for a number more years.   

[patrick]

The entire anvil is available as a tool  and to fully access it, you will have to change your stance depending on the work being done. I think the important thing to remember, and it sound like this is really what your example was getting at, is the need to keep your body/arm/workpiece in an arrangement that is as compact as possible. I've noticed beginners often tend to stay back from the anvil and reach with their hammer. This is an inefficient way of working because, the greater your arm extension, the less power and control you will have. A compact stance should be used whenever feasible to maximize efficiency and avoid injury.

[Glenn]

If you look at the way the arm works, shoulder elbow and wrist is in the same plane. If you hit the anvil in the center of the face (L to R) then you crank the elbow and shoulder to midline of the body that is belly button perpendicular to the anvil face. When you bend over a bit to see the work and the hammer misses, it will travel straight up and can impact your head usually between the eyes. 

 

Try this, put the hammer on the anvil perpendicular to the face, that is with the hammer head on the face and the handle sticking out into the air. With your hand at your waist walk up to the anvil so that the hammer handle touches your hand naturally. You will find you are about a step off to the side of your normal position.  Hold the hammer and take a couple of practice swings keeping your shoulder, elbow, wrict and hammer in the same plane. There should be little if any rotation stress on your joints as this is their normal positions.  If you miss the hot metal the hammer should now travel in the plane and over your shoulder.

 

You can now see the hot metal and where the hammer hits without twisting your head and neck.

 

This is just my way. Other people do things their way. Use what works best for you.

[gote]

Patric,

Of course I agree that the stance depends upon the work being done but it is difficult to know what is meant by "stay back" and "compact stance" without actually  be looking at it. Maybe we do not disagree at all; maybe your compact is my natural but the way I read your post, I beg to disagree.

 

POWER

The energy of the moving hammer head is proportional to its weight and to the square of the speed. Thus increasing the speed by a factor two increases the power of the blow by a factor four. A very compact stance will decrease the ability to accelerate the hammer head.

 

We have muscles that move our shoulder, our elbow and our wrist. It is efficient to use all of them and more or less equally. A compact stance does not make much use of the shoulder and a very compact stance will use mostly the wrist. Thus a compact stance does not use our muscles efficiently.

 

The energy in the hammer head is proportional to the length of the acceleration travel times the force exerted by the muscles. Thus a very compact stance will not only use fewer muscles but also require a higher muscle force because the hammer travel is less. It will stress some of the muscles and let some be idle (or cramp up) A good way to become tired and eventually to need medical help.

 

CONTROL

If the stance is natural and stable when the hammer hits, the control will be good. The attention is not distracted by the body. If I pay attention to having the hammer near my ear and whether I tilt my head the right way and so on I cannot fully concentrate on hitting the target. One way to achieve a good stance is to start with the hammer on the anvil and take up a comfortable and natural position from there and then just start hammering.  If the way of work is tiring this is in my view a very important factor in loosing control and eventually getting an accident.

Cheers

Göte

 

PS

Glenn

I obviously agree with you. A natural position is a short step to the side. I am just wordier.

[Charles R. Stevens]

As a farrier and a smith i work bothe sides of the anvile, i stand next the the heal or horn as much as i stand facing the anvil, heck, i move, and change stance a lot, lol must be the ADD

[Glenn]

All this is hammer hold and stance depends of the project at hand. Holding and swinging a1 pound hammer is much different from holding and swinging a 8, 10, or 12 pound hammer, just as it is different for working with 14 gauge wire or 1-1/4  inch round stock. 

 

A London pattern single horn, a double horn or a block anvil each has unique differences. Are you squatting, sitting or standing when you use the anvil?  We sometimes forget to add the project size, hammer size, anvil shape and other details to the post so the viewer can have a full set of information and apply the suggestions given for THAT set of conditions.  

[Dodge]

How do you stand @ the anvil? The popular blacksmithing book everyone reads ...............................

 

What book would that be? Everyone??

[Frosty]

What book would that be? Everyone??

 

I'm with you Dodge I'd like to know which book it is. I used to have a decent smithing library and was taken by the conviction that a given smith had learned the BEST way to do virtually anything and they were, of course, all different opinions.

 

When I teach I only express a few "my way or the highway" things. You WILL wear eye protection or leave the shop. I WILL check you out on any power tool before you may operate it. You get the idea, safety first, respect for the tools second, actual smithing just about last place.

 

I've never watched someone at the anvil and not learned something even if it's DON'T do THAT! My Father learned metal spinning and machining in one of FDRs programs to get us out of the depression, I have his journeyman's card dated 1933. Anyway, he had the Apprenticeship grad's attitude of this is THE way it's done. I learned from him but life and experience in a fiercely competitive trade had altered his philosophy, he was only really hardline on safety and respect for the equipment.

 

Ah, more than enough back story but it's the basis of my opinion, well that and working with guys who were Dad's contemporaries and  completed apprenticeships.

 

One of the buzz phrases I associate with the old blacksmithing books and trade articles is, "If you try my method you will find it the superior." No maybes or other qualifiers, they KNEW their method was best.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[anvil]

coming from a farrier to a smith my approach to the anvil was my body perpendicular to the line of the anvil. this worked well for generally shaping shoes on the horn, leveling on the face and opening a shoe over the heal.

when I started smithing I learned there is a world more that can be done on the anvil. the two examples from the OP were my main problem, drawing out and a half faced blow to make a shoulder.

if I remained perpendicular I found I had to close up my arms and body to see what I was doing. even so, I had a hard time being able to easily see my iron was truly perpendicular to the edge of the anvil.

I found myself drawing out by holding the iron at another angle to the face than perpendicular and this worked pretty good. however when using stands, it was awkward.

I had a workshop in Europe around '87 and learned, I assume, a European approach that opened up my anvil immensely.

that is my body being parallel to the line of the anvil. I'm a lefty, so all others think backwards. my horn is to my right, heal to my left, my left foot is closest to the anvil and slightly back. my right foot is slightly forward and I'm balanced on the balls of my feet and weight slightly forward.

my head is not over the face of the anvil, its over the iron. my body is loose and open. Now for a half faced blow, I'm looking down the iron and can see how my iron crosses the edge of the anvil, and I can easily see and select any angle I want for my shoulder with ease and precision.

for drawing out, I lean slightly into the anvil and this puts my hammer blows directly and naturally over the center of the face. I can hold my iron and setup my stands easier and when using my hammer face as a many angled fuller and looking down the iron I have great control when drawing out..

I can see and compensate for twist in the bar as well as any bending and keep my work a magnitude straighter during each heat.

now I have direct control of the anvil/ body from perpendicular to parallel as needed and my hand controls my hammer face from flat to any needed angle. in a sense this truly opened up what I can do immensely, naturally, and way more open and relaxed.

works for me, give it a try.

[SJS]

I pay very little attention to where I am standing or how I am moving... I pay strict attention to what the steel is doing when I hit it !  TO be honest most of the time I don't really think about what I need to do differently to get the steel where I want it to go, I just watch the steel move into the shape I want it to be, but I have been forging for a long time. I passively notice in passing that a particular procedure is uncomfortable, or fatigues my back or neck, or that I move back from the anvil a bit when I am swinging a longer handled hammer. I am always thinking about what I want to do next, and what I hope to get done in this heat, and I do think about improving efficiency. But the mechanics of how I get things done is mostly unconscious now, that's just how I do things.  If I have a decent sized Hofi/Czech style hammer or a short hafted hand sledge I will generally be very close to the anvil.  I have seen a number of excellent blacksmiths demonstrate hammer technique like this, and move a lot of metal fast, and with a high degree of skill and precision.  There are a lot of different 'traditions; and 'schools' of thought

[SReynolds]

The Complete Modern Blacksmith

Alexander Weygers

 

I have questioned his suggestions on the forum before and what I have recieved in the past is 180° opposite from what I just read on the topic at hand (standing @ the anvil & swinging the chammer)

 

Apparently he is supposed to be the final say on how to do this or that, from my past questions............

 

I recently visited a shop and the blacksmith was standing right over the top of the face, swinging a 3 pounder, square faced/ very short handle hammer, making hooks from 1/4 inch stock. 

 

He teaches classes.

 

So do I.

 

Was sorta taken back by his stance/size of his hammer for 1/4" stock. Got me to thinking about how I instruct **my** students. Thus my question.

 

As far as holding the hammer mentioned in an above post, I hold the handle either way, depending on how I feel. Joe DeLaRonde holds said handle with the thumb on top. Tough to argue with an expert about that.

[Frosty]

I'm going to have to go reread "The Complete Modern Blacksmith", I missed that recommendation, probably just ignored it. I ignore a LOT of the, "This is the BEST way" comments in the old smithing books. I recommend Wygers book because it's the definitive bootstrap yourself a smithy from whatever's laying around book.

 

One of the guys in our club uses a 3+lb. hammer in that manner. He even has his anvil tilted a few degrees away from him so he can hit it perpendicular to the face. I do remember that from reading somewhere. He also complains about how much his shoulder, elbow and wrist hurt.

 

I never understood how anyone could use a hammer for any length of time that way. Basically trying to punch the stock with it rather than swinging it. The technique takes two joint flexions out of the swing and every time we add a joint to the swing it multiplies the force.

 

The whole technique is just so NON ergonomic. He only uses his shoulder and the motion of the hammer is more away and back from his waste than a real swing, back high to front low. It's easy to see why the anvil must be tipped out and why he has to stand directly over it or every blow would glance. the swing is held so close to his body he has to use a heavy hammer for any effect and using such a heavy hammer pretty much makes him use such a close short stroke. (I have trouble calling it a swing) Seriously, it's painful just to watch and that's not taking into account how he winces with every blow. Of course that pain is from using this technique for better than 30 years.

 

Sure lots of guys get away with hammering with their thumbs on top of the handle for decades but a lot more are suffering permanent joint damage from same or similar in other fields. It's not an issue of must do or must not, it's a technique. However it's a technique that doesn't perform better than one without the same potential for damage to our hands, wrists, elbows and shoulders. If a person is going devote the time and effort to learn a technique well enough to imprint it into muscle memory why not learn one that isn't likely to cripple?

 

Of course that's just my opinion.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Dodge]

The Complete Modern Blacksmith

Alexander Weygers

 

I have questioned his suggestions on the forum before and what I have recieved in the past is 180° opposite from what I just read on the topic at hand (standing @ the anvil & swinging the chammer)

 

Apparently he is supposed to be the final say on how to do this or that, from my past questions............

 

I recently visited a shop and the blacksmith was standing right over the top of the face, swinging a 3 pounder, square faced/ very short handle hammer, making hooks from 1/4 inch stock. 

 

He teaches classes.

 

So do I.

 

Was sorta taken back by his stance/size of his hammer for 1/4" stock. Got me to thinking about how I instruct **my** students. Thus my question.

 

As far as holding the hammer mentioned in an above post, I hold the handle either way, depending on how I feel. Joe DeLaRonde holds said handle with the thumb on top. Tough to argue with an expert about that.

 

I'm not sure why "everyone" believes he is the final say. He was an author, artist, painter, philosopher, heck he was even a fellow Marine from one source I read. That being said, he wrote books on several subjects. One just happened to be on blacksmithing and from what I have gleaned from net surfing, he learned most of that from either reading old books on the subject and personal experience in making tools for his other art mediums; namely sculpting chisels and such. His book about smithing (which I do own and have read) is about what has worked for him; much like any other books on smithing (as has been eluded to by previous posts). How his book, entertaining and informative as it may be, became "The One Book" on blacksmithing is beyond me except maybe its price. Its one of the more affordable books on smithing so perhaps the first (and I'm guessing, only) book many new smiths buy. It was my first smithing book, but from what I've learned on my own as well as from other smiths, it's far from the final say for me. YMMV :)

 

Scott

[anvil]

that was a really frosty response,,,oh yup, that was Frosty. I agree completely. What Dodge said too.


I learned a long time ago any time you here "this is the way" its time to sit up and take notice, and check their premise.

by the way, Joe lives just down the way from me. good guy.

[SReynolds]

....cool......

 

You know Joe, eh? I literally memorized his book. Best of all, he proves that you only need a10x12 shop to make money and really cool items. Or is it 8 x10???? LOL Anyway,,,,,,,,,,,,,, dirt floor and a couple of tools. 

 

I enjoyed the replys...all of them. Yeah Frosty makes a good point. If it hurts you, then it may be better to find another method. If it don't, and it works, then do it.

[Francis Trez Cole]

this is a study that I have worked at for years I have books that were written back in the 1800's and they teach the same way to hit. I hope this goes in to more depth. So lets break down the body and the stance and your swing. I hope this helps

a future video I am working on is striking more to come

[Frosty]

Thanks for the video Francis, good technique and good explanations. I'm struck by you saying you incorporate the rules of movement you learned from Tai Chi. I incorporate the rules of movement I learned studying Karate. It's all interdependent, it's hard to have one without the others, to relax a person must be stable, to be stable you must be centered and to develop good power you must be all. The more joints and muscle groups in a movement the more power and less stress. The more relaxed, the more accurate, the more power and the faster a movement.

 

Well, wasn't that a little disorganized.

 

Brought me back to days in the dojo. Good days.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Ohio Rusty]

I stand close to the anvil about the middle of the anvil, and I broke myself of putting my face over the anvil. 2 or 3 years ago I was hammering pretty firmly to move high carbon metal with a straight peen hammer.  One strike I missed the metal and the hammer rebounded up off the anvil and that straight peen hit me square in the forehead and brought blood.  Man did that ache for a couple hours. 

Never again ...... One lesson is enough ...

Ohio Rusty ><>

The Ohio Frontier Forge