Propane rigs

[DSW]

I'm no novice to Oxy acetylene heating/ cutting and even welding/brazing. I've been doing it for years. Recently I've been thinking of using the torch more for my blacksmithing projects and my 75 CF acetylene cylinder really doesn't cut it volume wise for running it for any length of time with a rosebud or even the mid sized cutting tip, so I'm thinking about going over to propane.

 

I have a number of options on which way to go. #1 would be new, #2 would be to throw a rig together based on what parts I already have simply buying those parts I need, Say a propane rosebud or cutting tip and grade T hose. I see good and bad points to all the options. Cost for parts alone is about 50% of new, and if I send any of my existing gear out for rebuild ( some may need it if I go that route) I'll quickly come close to the lower end of the new rigs I looked at.

 

I'm also seriously thinking about going with a gassaver at the same time and rigging up one of those stands that holds the torch so I can heat and "hand off " the torch since I usually work alone or rig it up so you can use the foot pedal to fire the torch as needed. One of the up sides of going with parts I already have is that I can use the savings to offset the cost of the gassaver.

 

 I've looked at a bunch of the Victor stuff and man is their website one of the worst I've even seen. Right now I'm thinking either the Performer or Contender in LP. The Medalist in LP is about the same price as the Performer, but with a 25' hose vs 12 1/2' hose. Torch body/tips are also different as are the regs. Victor doesn't seem to have  a good comparison anywhere of what the differences are between A and B rigs are in their gear.

 

 

I'm wondering what rigs you all have set up, preferably brand and model. I'm also wondering how many are using Propane vs Acetylene, and if you use acetylene, what size tips and cylinders you usually use.

 

Thanks.

[Dodge]

I have thought seriously about making the switch, myself. I will be following this post :)

 

Scott

[arftist]

I have used propane for over 30 years. As noted you will need type T hose. Most ace regs work fine. Contact your manufacturer for a definitive answer. 

 

I use mostly Purox, Oxweld, Linde, Union Carbide (all one brand for torches) and regulators. I would rather rebuild an old reg than buy a new one any day. 

 

Victor's new crap is made in China. Buyer beware. 

 

Ace rose buds work with propane but there are specific propane rosebuds as well. Stone workers used a big bad boy to re-edge cut stone. I have a Linde model of about 1.25" I.D. It gets HOT. I also have an old Harris with a 4 foot long neck tube and a two inch head. This thing is a forge in a hand. If I need to bend 2x2" solid bar in place, I whip out the Harris. Issues? It will drain a large Oxy in under an hour. 

 

Not sure why you want to do this for heating, oxy is expensive these days. Definitely the best for cutting though.

 

Pretty much the only forging I do with a torch is riveting. 

 

With a tip temp of 5700 F vs 6100F for ace, it does take noticeably longer to preheat the start of a cut. For plate this is not an issue. 

 

If I had to cut a thousand feet of chain link fence with a torch I would change over to ace for the job. 

 

Cutting tips for propane are expensive. Don't bother with a single piece tip. Two piece tips are easy to clean and can  last for many years. For the most part, just taking the tip out of the torch will clean it. 

 

It is good, if you switch to give up traditional tip cleaners and switch to tip drills, or have both. You only need to clean the center hole with this type of device. 

 

I keep a couple B tanks around for when I need to gas weld something, otherwise I use propane and save tons of money every year. It works for brazing, silver soldering, just not quite good enough for fusion welding of steel with steel filler rods. 

Regular welding tips work with propane. 

[NeatGuy]

I use a small devilbiss oxygen generator attached to venturi forge burner. The oxygen generator does not supply enough o2 to run a rosebud or the burner directly but it does augment the supply of o2 entering the burner. It does not get as hot as a rosebud but it is hotter than the burner without it and is definitely more economical.

 

brad

[Eddie Mullins]

DSW - Glad you started this over here, I thought I recognozed your username on the thread I started about propnae outfits.

[kubiack]

My propane setup is the heavy duty Smith Outfit. At the time I bought it Smith had the largest propane rosebud, was made in the USA, and had a lifetime grantee. I have used the equipment quite a bit for flame straightening and spot heating for bending. I have the smaller of the rosebuds and it will easily melt the end of 1/2 inch bar stock. The Smith equipment is very high quality. I don't know where they are made now that Miller bought them out.

 

If you are going to use the rosebud much you will need a very large or multiple large oxygen cylinders. If I remember correctly burning propane take 3 times the amount of oxygen as does acetylene.

[GottMitUns]

I just got a gas saver last week and worked it into my existing torch set up, I put it between the reg and 30' of hose, ( at this point in the post all of the old guys are shaking there head because they know it will take at lease 3-4 seconds for all the gases in 30' of hose to burn off before the torch goes out!)  next chance I get I will rig it up at the end of the hose with a 5 foot whip hose coming off of it.  Food for thought. 

[DSW]

I just got a gas saver last week and worked it into my existing torch set up, I put it between the reg and 30' of hose, ( at this point in the post all of the old guys are shaking there head because they know it will take at lease 3-4 seconds for all the gases in 30' of hose to burn off before the torch goes out!)  next chance I get I will rig it up at the end of the hose with a 5 foot whip hose coming off of it.  Food for thought. 

 

Thanks. That makes complete sense, though I hadn't thought that far ahead on the subject. I'll keep that in mind.

[DSW]

DSW - Glad you started this over here, I thought I recognized your username on the thread I started about propane outfits.

 

No problem Eddie. I figured you see it here and benefit from it as well.

[DSW]

My propane setup is the heavy duty Smith Outfit. At the time I bought it Smith had the largest propane rosebud, was made in the USA, and had a lifetime grantee. I have used the equipment quite a bit for flame straightening and spot heating for bending. I have the smaller of the rosebuds and it will easily melt the end of 1/2 inch bar stock. The Smith equipment is very high quality. I don't know where they are made now that Miller bought them out.

 

If you are going to use the rosebud much you will need a very large or multiple large oxygen cylinders. If I remember correctly burning propane take 3 times the amount of oxygen as does acetylene.

 

I've looked at Smith rigs. The tech school uses all Smith gear to teach OA. Given a choice I think I like their torches the best of all I've used. Problem is that all their propane kits I've seen are combo cutting setups, and don't come with a heating tip. The rosebud adds a lot to the package and around here finding Smith parts isn't easy. ( Though that's pretty true for anything propane from what I've seen so far...)

 

 

As far as cylinders, I'm all set on O2 if need be. I currently have 1 282 cf cylinder and 2 100 cf cylinders in the shop and I have at least 12 more 282CF or larger cylinders in storage from when I used to do a lot of technical diving and mix gas. I've even still got my O2 cascade whip that allows me to manifold 3 of the 282 cf cylinders at once ( and enough parts to add at least 2 more if required). Last time I filled the 282's it cost me about $35 compared to $30 to fill a 100 cf cylinder. I'll probably blow thru the 20 lb propane cylinder before I drain the O2 supply. ( A larger propane cylinder is on the list to grab if a inexpensive used one becomes available from my supplier)

[DSW]

Now what I have,

2 complete Victor kits on CGA 300. I'll have to dig them up to look at them and identify the units, but I'm guessing they are the lower to medium grade kits from what I remember when we bought them years ago. Both are set up for acetylene, both with probably #6 possibly a #8 rose bud ( I know the 1st of the kits we replaced the rosebud when one of the guys backed over the tip with the truck.

Dedicated Victor cutting torch in acetylene. That's my main rig and it's set up with the hose and regs from the 1st of the kits above.

2nd dedicated Victor cutting torch in fair but questionable shape. I bought it because it was $5 with  a pair of beat heavy duty 2 stage Victor regs at an auction. Mostly as a spare for the above torch, but never got around to sending it in for rebuild.

Old Airco torch handle and cutting attachment. Possibly one welding tip. Unit was ancient when I was given it 20 years ago. Not really an option for this since parts at that time cost a fortune when Airco had just gone out of business.

Old Esab Oxyweld handle, with beat to death cutting attachment and one welding tip. Bought with a box of air acetylene parts off CL for a song. Probably would want to have it gone over and rebuilt if I went with that. I have to 1st ID the torch handle and then determine if propane tips are easily available. It's a nice heavy duty looking torch, soit has a high probability of getting converted to propane if I go with something I already own.

Dedicated Harris cutting torch in either propane, propylene, or possibly MAP ( it's old enough to have MAP be a serious possibility), with propane (?) reg ( I think I swiped the O2 reg at some point for another project. Hose is toast and I've never fired up the torch since I got it in "working" condition cheap at a shop going out of business. Again always planned to send it out for rebuild, but never got to it.

One set Harris Acetylene reg in CGA 300 and O2 reg in CGA 540 in good condition. Bought for a "friend" who then backed out of the deal after I put up the cash for him. ( Grrrr...)

I know at a bare minimum I'll need the rosebud and hose as mentioned above. I believe I have a CGA 300 to 510 adapter some where that came with that misc box of air acetylene and torch parts I got. I'll either need a propane reg, or need to get one of the existing ones rebuilt for probably $50 or so ( I have to call Jim at Reg and Torch Exchange this week and get a rough quote on reg  and torch handle rebuilds. I could swipe the ones off the better Victor set listed 1st as one option, but that kills my option of running a dedicated OA cutting rig, An OA dedicated heating rig ( I have two sets of 75 CF acetylene cylinders as well as 2 ( or more)  300 cf O2 cylinders or 2 100 CF O2 cylinders.) as well as the new propane rig that will most likely be dedicated to just heating with either a big tip, or the rosebud.

[DSW]

Ace rose buds work with propane but there are specific propane rosebuds as well. Stone workers used a big bad boy to re-edge cut stone. I have a Linde model of about 1.25" I.D. It gets HOT. I also have an old Harris with a 4 foot long neck tube and a two inch head. This thing is a forge in a hand. If I need to bend 2x2" solid bar in place, I whip out the Harris. Issues? It will drain a large Oxy in under an hour. 

 

Not sure why you want to do this for heating, oxy is expensive these days. Definitely the best for cutting though.

 

Pretty much the only forging I do with a torch is riveting. 

 

Regular welding tips work with propane. 

 

Good to know on the rosebud and welding tips. I was pretty sure the welding tips would work at least for soldering/brazing. I believe I saw somewhere that you needed to go up in tip size, but that's not that big a deal. I wasn't sure about the rosebuds, though I knew they had dedicated propane ones. That makes using the Victor torch as is a strong possibility as the kit had a fair number of tips as well as the rosebud, which makes me think the kit may have been one of their medium duty ones at the time vs one of the cheaper sets. ( I'll have to swing by the shop and dig it out to identify it.) I know at least the one kit is an old USA made Victor. Not sure 100% about torch #2, though it may be a higher quality clone from years ago.

 

As far as why, a bunch of the projects I've been doing lately have had either peened over tenons in mortises or rivets. The ability to use it for point heating on bends  like collars and things also wouldn't hurt. I've been asked recently by a friend if I can make up some roses for him. He'll cut out the parts on his CNC machine and send them to me to heat and "fold", so a torch seems like it would simplify some of the process.

[Frosty]

I've been running the Allstates Oxy propane torch for a good 25 years and it WAS hard to beat. A few years ago Lyle died and his kids took over the company so evidently the torches are now a sideline they don't much care about. Buying a new Allstates rig runs in the $1500 range. If you're a commercial user it will pay for itself but. . .

 

Allstates torches are made by Harris and since the patent ran out Harris is now marketing an equivalent I hear is indeed the equivalent. (I'm just going to call them torches and prefix a P or A, I'm getting tired of writing the same abreviations over and over.)

 

Conversion torches have a deserved reputation for burning oxy at more than 2x the rate of oxy acet rigs. There's good reason, conversions are typically just a tip and they are not purpose built P torches. The correct propane regulation for an efficient P torch is a meter, not a pressure reg. P torches actually use pressures better measured with a manometer than a gauge but use it at higher volume. Cranking the pressure higher to make up the volume causes the gasses to not mix well so it just doesn't burn correctly.

 

The Allstates and now Harris rigs are designed from the regulators to the tips to use propane, propane is metered at a higher volume and the oxy can be cranked to well over 100psi. You can't (maybe just don't with the Harris) mess with the P regulator at all. I used to have all the paperwork from Allstates and Lyle tried several times to get me to sell for him but never talked money or trades. I won't go deeper into the guts of the rigs, just that purpose built P torches cost about 2% for consumables what an A torch does.

 

No fooling, I spent more than $600 for an Allstates rig in the late 70's after watching the demo. It paid for itself a couple times over before I emptied my first 20lb. bottle of propane. While the oxy is typically running more than 2x what it would for equivalent work using an A torch, a P torch is so much faster it doesn't end up burning much of either for the same work. The rosebud, called a #5 heater by Allstates and a pretty modest rosebud, a nickle won't fit inside the collar and lay flat on the jets though a penny will. The #5 heater will melt 1 cubic inch of steel in under 13 seconds while in the same time, the same size or larger A torch rosebud is barely bringing the flame contact face of the cube to red. I have no bull done this a number of times.

 

The P torch handle has a thumb valve so it doesn't have a pilot like a gas saver and clipping a trickle charger to the handle and grounding the table gives you a striker by brushing the tip on the table top with the valve open. You can of course by the electric torch lighter if you want but I think it's just a trickle charger myself and the company name lighters are really over priced.

 

Using it is a matter of adjusting the torch once and turn it on and off as you use it. That alone will save a bunch, you burn a lot of oxy fuel adjusting a torch every time you light up.

 

Oxy isn't hard to find or hard to ship but just try getting a tank of acetylene on an air liner. On the other hand propane can by bought virtually anywhere and with one of the cheapo adapters you can run a P torch for a surprising length of time with a Bernzomatic or camp stove can. They also like Mapp gas just fine.

 

There are downsides, don't get me wrong. Even the Harris equivalent is going to cost more than an A torch setup. Worse still is trying to weld steel with one. I've heard all kinds of reasoning for why and Lyle swore it was easy. However, having given it more than one serious tries MY thought is the oxy psi is just too high, it tends to just blow the puddle out of the joint. I have hammer welded large stock with the heater and that worked a treat. Once I got the steel to the verge of melting I backed the torch way back and let the feathers do the last.

 

P torches braze and hard solder very well. Cut like a steel slicing demon and the heater is as described. All for a 2% operating cost and easy transport.

 

I can't and won't endorse Allstates anymore, they're just into other things, it seems the torches are more an annoyance to them. They actually charged me + shippng to rebuild my P regulator and it took more than 4 months. Harris would have you out of the store in minutes and maybe charged you if you'd beating the reg badly enough.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[DSW]

Good information Frosty.

 

 

I'll take a closer look at the Harris torches this evening. Do you have a specific Harris model that matches up to the Allstate one? I'll also have to take a closer look at the "reg" that's is on the propane cutting torch. It's not a standard regulator, but looks more like a flow meter with the vertical clear tube. I'll try and grab a pict later and post it. If that unit is one of the units similar to what you just described, it may make a lot of sense to have it rebuilt.

[Frosty]

Good information Frosty.

 

 

I'll take a closer look at the Harris torches this evening. Do you have a specific Harris model that matches up to the Allstate one? I'll also have to take a closer look at the "reg" that's is on the propane cutting torch. It's not a standard regulator, but looks more like a flow meter with the vertical clear tube. I'll try and grab a pict later and post it. If that unit is one of the units similar to what you just described, it may make a lot of sense to have it rebuilt.

 

I'm still going through my archived E-mails on the subject with a friend and Bill Kingsley of Harris. Clyde posted a manual Bill had made up with all the part numbers and operating instructions. I've found bits and pieces and I'll have to ask Bill if Harris is going to offer a "set" rather than a list of equivalent components.

 

There was good info we can all use without problem. For the last number of years all the gas tool companies have been making Propane rated (I don't recall if it's T grade or what) regulators, hoses, valves, etc. so there is no longer a danger of propane degrading modern hoses regs, etc. A word of warning Bill passed on is. Never change fuel gasses through components. Whatever fuel you start with stick to it, weird chemistry can take place changing fuels.

 

I'll post what I can as soon as I can. I don't know what if any proprietary stuff I'm looking at or how it stacks up with IFI commercial link/post policy.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[DSW]

What ever you can send me would be appreciated, If need be Pm me and I can shoot you my Email addy or cell number.

[Frosty]

Okay, having gone through channels <wink> here's what I have. DARN, I have more but it's woven into probably 30-40 E-mails I'll have to sift through them to get the pt.#s for a "kit". Heck, maybe I'll E-mail Bill and let him have his people put together a "Kit" list. It'd be nice to walk into a Harris dealer and say give me the (insert model name) torch set.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

Alternative to Allstates setup. 6/22/2014

 

Bill Kingsley, the marketing fellow for North America for Harris, did come by today and spent a long time going over my torch, regulators, tips etc. He is a wealth of information and taught me a lot about using the torch. He gave me 3 new tips to try and demoed using them.

 

3 or 4 years ago he told me Harris was moving him to Phoenix that year so I had assumed that he was out there long ago. As it turned out the move never happened and he is still in Milwaukee. He was camping near here with his girl friend so we were fortunate to have him come by.

 

He did explain about the torch that Allstates sells as a super efficient propane cutting torch. It turns out that Allstates just uses Harris technology and used its own marketing scheme to sell a product that is available in parts from Harris dealers. He did a quick estimate and said that the parts in the kit Allstates sells for $1,500 probably costs Allstates less than $600.

 

Apparently Harris started the company back in 1905 or thereabouts. By accident he came up with this torch setup which uses the venturi principal to suck the gas in at a low pressure and use it very efficiently with oxy and propane (or natural gas). These torches use only 4 oz to 2 lb gas pressure.

 

He demoed by disconnecting the propane hose from the torch and showing me the tremendous suction at the open gas valve on the torch when the oxygen was on and how it changed as the oxy valve was being closed.

 

He also demoed the NFF tips which produce considerably faster heat. As I explained before it takes me to the count of 12 to get the red I need to start bending 9/16 round rod. With this tip it takes 5 seconds. That is a major help when I'm bending dozens of rod joints in a short time on the same piece I'm making.

 

The trick of the whole thing is to get the right torch set up.

 

1. Cutting Attachment. Model 49-3F. This is the key part where the magic occurs. I found it at Airgas for $190.

 

2. Torch Handle. Model 18-5. Now any Harris handle will do but this has the trigger which turns on both the gas and oxy so that once set you do no adjusting every time you light it. This is expensive, ($370 is the cheapest I could find) but worth it to me where I light it over and over on some projects.

 

3. Harris 25GX-15-510 Acetylene Regulator 510 CGA 3000380. This is an acetylene regulator but it works perfectly with the propane. It goes from 0 to 15 lbs. I find setting it at 1 or 2 lbs works great. The cutting attachment works requiring a maximum of 2 lbs. I got it postage paid from Oxyarc for $83.83.

 

4. Any Oxy regulator will do. Bill said that the 2 stage regulators are a waste of money unless you need the ultra precision in a lab situation. He did send me a different regulator for my situation. I have an oxy generator which has a maximum output of 60 PSA so it should have a different regulator that those system having high pressure output such as tanks. This one is a Harris 547-50-CR Pipelie 4000605

 

Below is a guide to tips.

 

 

 

The NX is the general pre-heat tip.

 

The NFF is the heavy preheat tip. This tip is a great choice for rusted or scaled material and in your applications for heating rods. 

 

The only change is the internal piece which is machined with "V" slots on the NX and "U" slots on the NFF. 

 

The sizing (0, 1, 2, etc.) of the cutting oxygen bore in both styles.

Best regards,

 

Bill Kingsley

262-391-9396

[DSW]

Thanks Frosty.

 

Am I reading this right, you are using the cutting torch to heat with vs a rosebud or welding tip? That's the way I'm reading the above post and want to make sure I understand what you are describing.

[Fe-Wood]

DSW, I've been using Oxy/propane for a couple of years now. I use a small oxy bottle and 5 gl. propane tank. They ride on a purpose built roll around cart. I have a fuel saver and 5' hose whip for the torch. I LOVE IT!!! I use it for spot heating for forging, bending, heading rivets and applying wax finish. I have a fire brick table with loose bricks to use as sides to make two sides on the steel that I heat on, acts like an open top forge, keeping the heat were you want it. I learned that technique from Daniel Miller. My set up is an amalgamation of parts from O/A sets. I use a propane regulator and rose bud the rest (hose, torch body, tips) are for ace. Works fine! My fuel saver was from an ace setup. I don't use the candle because it isn't sized right for propane. I use a plumbers torch with a piazo lighter on it to start my fire. Welding tips are great for heating for bends and rivet heading. If you use a fly press, propane torch spot heat will be the way to go! For the size and style of work you do, that I've seen you don't need to go big... Keep it simple!

[Frosty]

Thanks Frosty.

 

Am I reading this right, you are using the cutting torch to heat with vs a rosebud or welding tip? That's the way I'm reading the above post and want to make sure I understand what you are describing.

 

I didn't write the post I passed it on for the torch data. Clyde is using the cutting torch for heating and cutting. He's also using an oxygen generator not bottled oxy. Clyde has his own style and needs. For a look at Clyde Wynia's sculptural style check this out. http://www.jurustic.com/

 

Clyde is limited to 60psi with the oxy generator but virtually rarely cuts even 1/4" so it's not an issue. His main torch heads are the heater (rosebud) and cutting torch for a heater. A brazing tip isn't large enough for most of his needs, I believe he bends 1/2"-5/8" for the most part with occasional jaunts into large scale. Check out the scales on the dragon critters for an example. For the most part Clyde uses a plasma cutter rather than cutting torch, he has a nice one.

 

I believe that's as much as I know about what Clyde uses his torch for, his wife Nan does lamp glass work and is plumbed into the oxygen system. Between them they go through a lot of oxy, a LOT.

 

When I was doing more hot shop work I used the cutting torch a lot and the rosebud and brazing tips occasionally. Now I only use it as necessary I just don't do the amount of fabrication and field work I used to. I have found the cutting torch does make a good medium size heater and it's so much better for spot heat than the forge. Makes peining rivets pretty ho hum easy.

 

Since the accident I just don't use my torch much.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[arftist]

Great post Frosty, Learned a lot. 

I do have the 18-5 torch handle so I will just have to buy the 49-3F cutting attachment and save even more money. Thanks. 

[Frosty]

My pleasure, I'll be seeing if I can come up with a cleaner list of parts. Harris offers many times as many tips as Allstates.

 

One post talks about the difference between the two types of cutting tips. One series is for thin stock and the other is for heavy stock.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[DSW]

Thanks again. I'm some what familiar with Oxy generators as I knew a few dive shops who used them for making O2 to blend nitrox with a continuous blending stick on a compressor.

[Frosty]

Thanks again. I'm some what familiar with Oxy generators as I knew a few dive shops who used them for making O2 to blend nitrox with a continuous blending stick on a compressor.

 

I did some researching back when and the 60psi limit was a no sale for me. You can get a generator with a boost compressor that will give you 2,200psi. I just learned about this one a day or two ago and if a person were using enough oxy and needed the psi it'd pay off soon enough. The artist we have been talking about oxy generators and the compressors with lives off the grid about 4 hours from the closest supplier and is making a living with iron work and sculpture so she's spending something like $40,000 a year just on oxy.

 

Yeah, oxy generator and boost compressor for her for sure.

 

I took a look around Jurustic park site and Clyde's changed it . . . again. He used to have a huge gallery of his work but not on the home site anymore. <sigh> The "contact us" link has a link to their flikr pages where you can check out some of his stuff. A look at body of Clyde's work is all the explanation a person needs for why he has an oxygen generator and 600gl. storage. The guy has more energy than a ferret OD'd on Pixy stix.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Eddie Mullins]

Thanks for the info Frosty!