Jump to content
I Forge Iron

OMG, someone wants to BUY something from me!! Help!


Recommended Posts

Okay, this is a first for me.  At the end of a long day of forging Saturday I picked up a piece of rusty rebar I'd bought at a junkyard for a few pennies and tried to make a rebar snail.  It was more learning experience than anything else, I learned what to do better next time which is what's most important (taper the end before I curl it under, better treatment of the antenna).   But I mentioned it to someone at work, she asked me to bring it in and now she wants THREE of them!   Gulp... my first real order.   Making them is not the problem... the problem is I have absolutely NO idea how to set a price.  I can't claim the design, it's something I saw online somewhere and kept in the back of my head as a neat idea to try sometime at the end of a forging day.    Anyone else make rebar snails?  If so, are you willing to share what you charge for them?   Or how you handled this the first time someone actually wanted to BUY something you're making?!       

 

I'm a hobbyist, this is just something I do on Saturdays because I enjoy it immensely and it keeps me off the streets.   :D   But I am also aware I don't want to be undercutting people who do this for an actual living.   Yes, I know there are all kinds of threads on here about considering overhead, time, etc.   My only real expense in the calculation is propane and the amount of time it takes a Newb to do the work, which I figure is roughly 10 1/2 times the amount of time it would take you guys who do this seriously, so that's not a good factor in calculating price for me. 

 

any help?  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Complex issue, not knowing the size or quality, if it's all rebar, I'd guess $10-$20 range each? I'll let rebar snakes go for about $15-20 since they're easy and quick.

 

Could try $60 for the lot, and if she doesn't jump, offer her a "friendly coworker" discount of $50. How she reacts may tell you something about the price, or what her expectations are.

 

Worst that happens, you don't make a sale that you already weren't expecting and save em for a demo sale or some such. Either way, it's nice to point to wife/parents/significant whatever and say "See? My hobby's NOT just a money hole."

 

Also, might consider a finish if you're selling it. For something small and quick like that, could be as easy as a wire brush and clear lacquer or black paint. Or she might like letting them rust. Good luck!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just googled "Iron snail ornament" they're running $35.00 apiece for a cast one online.

 

Undercutting competition would be a factor if you were alongside somebody's display table pulling folks aside offering a cut rate on what they've displayed.  Otherwise it's pretty unlikely that you're actually going to be a major upset to the local "rebar snail" market.

 

"What should I sell for?" is a murky question, chances are good you're interested in offering good value since you'll see your customer every day at work (at least till the other orders come piling in).  Give yourself a reasonable hourly rate for however long it'll take you and add your material expenses - what do you get?  

 

Running a quick and dirty deal here, you could say it'll take 10 hours of work to get from metal supplier to delivery.  Going super cheap on labor you might ask $8/hour. I don't know how fast you run out of propane but maybe you'll probably have between $10-20 in materials.  Divide the total by three and you're at $30-$33 per each.  That'd put your cost in line with the mass-produced stuff I found online. The client pays mass-produced rates for custom made - so it's good value to them.

 

Please, please, please don't take my example as a way to run a business!  I'm just trying to answer your specific "non-professional" pricing question.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is she a friend, or just a casual acquaintance? If a friend, may want to consider just giving them to her and graciously accepting any donation she wants to make to your steel/fuel/tool fund. As a newbie myself, I enjoy making the projects and welcome the extra hammer time. For your snails, it sounds like a great opportunity to practice making three exact replicas, or just to see how much better and faster you get with each one. I am assuming that we are talking about relatively small snails and not some mutant oversized beasties out of 1 inch rebar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not knowing what your snails look like it's hard to estimate time. Material is insignificant and you're playing in the fire anyway so that takes the propane out of the figuring. It's not like someone is asking for 50.

 

I'm thinking the $25-35 range is reasonable leaning towards the high side unless you WANT the whole garden club ordering them at cut rate prices. Something to consider isn't under cutting other smiths, it's under cutting yourself. I think most all hobbyists would LOVE a simple project that was popular enough to help or even pay for their hobby. Garden snails might be your golden product and you do NOT want to establish a price base so low you CAN'T make a profit.

 

Jer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm attaching a photo with a tremendous gulp, because yes, I see all the errors, just remember this was a rough prototype to see if I could figure out how to do it. The snail is about the size of my hand, that's a 12" tile it's on, for perspective.

Thank you for the cautions about underpricing myself...that's something I hadn't really thought about, the whole what-if her friends see one and suddenly I'm getting lots of orders! That does give me pause. My first instinct looking at it was somewhere in the $10 range, but your input here is making me think that's really too low. But I'm also not sure the local market would go up above $20 for one?

This is hard! I'm also making a lot of other stuff for a small local craft show in November and I'm about to be faced with this same dilemma on a bunch of other items. I also need to be consistent across the whole "line" of what I'm selling....wouldn't make sense to charge $20 for a snail and $20 for a small and simple key chain.

post-53103-0-71684400-1410566888_thumb.j

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Spanky, that looks cute, don't worried about errors as its 'intended to be rustic'.

Price is very location dependent therefore shopping around and 'shoplifting with your eyes' becomes a good to have skill.

The ability to 'whack those out at speed' would be more methodology dependent that the amount of skill in forging that you have.
But it then changes the having fun factor. It's an individual thing, for some it becomes more fun and for others less so.

Using production techniques (as opposed to machines) you should be able to make a couple of dozen in less than a day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi again Spanky,
Sorry just realized I had said something without explaining so:

Thinking of your 'shell scroll' there are a number of ways to do this (we are talking hot) IE. put the end just over the edge of the anvil and hammer down, then roll over hammer back, roll over hammer down etc. etc. Traditional scroll making think of this as the ' need a bit of luck way! The more you practice the luckier you get. :) alternatively you bend a small u to hold the end of your bar and place it in your vice think staple, put the end of your bar into the hole and slip a tube over the bar as a handle and to create a bend point and start to 'roll' the bar around the 'staple' moving the tube back bit by bit. Open the vice and release the staple, if required reheat the scroll and hammer to 'crisp up' and flatten the scroll.

The second method is no less hand made but you might be surprised at how quick and proficient you can get with a small amount of practice .

I hope this is of use to someone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is hard! I'm also making a lot of other stuff for a small local craft show in November and I'm about to be faced with this same dilemma on a bunch of other items. I also need to be consistent across the whole "line" of what I'm selling....wouldn't make sense to charge $20 for a snail and $20 for a small and simple key chain.

 

 

In some cases like this, you may want to work in "reverse". Come up with set pricing, Say $5, $10. $15 and $20 items. Then determine what items best fit that category. A simple S hook or drive hook might be a $5 item. Something a bit more elaborate like a wall hoop to hang a potted plant might be $10 or even $15 if it was a bit more complex. Towel bars or items with more joinery would fall at the upper end of you range.

 

At this point it IS a business, even if a small one. How much material goes into what you are doing?  Something to cover fuel based on how long your cylinder lasts and what you know you can accomplish in that time. Then the magic question, how much do you want for your time... If you know materials and fuel, and have an idea what price range you think it may fall into, that gives you an idea what you will make. You want to make darn sure you are covering materials and expenses at a bare minimum, and if anything, figure high, so you can use any "extra" for more stock or new tools.

 

Lets take say a dinner triangle and wall hook. Lets ay theres' 3 feet of material in the triangle ( 12" sides) , and 2 feet in the simple wall hook. Maybe an additional foot for the striker and a leather thong to hang it, plus some clear coat. If we call steel $1 a foot ( rough number I use for stock 5/8" to 3/8" that I know is safe), we have $6 in material, Say $3 for a set of leather boot laces we can get several hangers out of ( We'll use $1 for now), and  a can of brush on clear coat runs about $10, and we can get a lot out of that quart, so we'll be safe and say $2 for that. So we are up to $9, and the "extra" money in my rough guess probably also covers fuel. If you feel that it will sell at $20, you will make $11 for your effort. If you do a few twists and make it a bit "fancier" you can probably get $35 or more with no real additional expense. A quick browse of Etsy shows prices in the $20-$50+ range for these, depending on the complexity, so we are in the rough ball park.

 

 

As far as your snail, I wouldn't feel $10 is a bad price $15 might be my top for that. I doubt I'd have more than 10 minutes in the actual forging of one. As Ianinsa said, bending around a mandrel would be the "production" way to do a number of these. I could see setting up several blanks and running one after another thru each step vs doing one complete, then doing the 2nd one.The more time you can save in each step, the more money you put in your pocket... If I have one iron in the fire heating slowly while I'm bending the 1st one, that takes out the "waste" time of sitting waiting for each heat. When done with #1, pop piece #3 in the fire, then start bending #2.. If I can crank out say 6 in an hour, and I make $6 each on them clear profit, that's $36 an hour... Not all that bad. On a production thing like this for a low price, keep things simple and don't over do it. If you only do 2 in an hour, that's $12 an hour in "pay" However your $10 or 15 price may now be really too low for the effort you put into it compared to other items you want to sell in the same price range..

 

With a good jig setup I can probably bang out 30 $5 hooks in an hour no problem in a production setting. Since I probably only use 6" at most of materials, I can easily clear $4 on each hook and make $120 compared to $36 for a more involved item like say your snail. 30 items doesn't mean they all need to be the same either. Simply changing from round to square stock won't greatly increase your work, but gives more variety for the effort.

 

 

Oh a few general thoughts on sales since it doesn't sound like you've done this before.

 

Pick nice neat numbers to work with. That's why I listed 5, 10, 15, 20 above. Selling stuff for $22.50 or $4 means you had better stock up on a lot of change. Expect most people to have $20's at worst, so you would still need a fair amount of $5's for change. $100 in 5's goes pretty quick if a few people all whip out 20's for $5 items. Don't count on being able to get change from others there as most are in the same boat you will be. If you are serious, I'd want $300-400 in 5's and 10's to make change with. Oh the new "cubes" that let you take credit cards with your smart phone are also not a bad idea if you are serious. It usually doesn't cost you anything to get one and set up the account, and you pay a small fee on each transaction. I still have a "dumb" phone, but when I upgrade next time, I may seriously think of getting a smart phone simply to make selling things a bit easier.

 

Get some cheap business cards printed up. Vista print will do 500 of their better quality cards for like $10 If I remember what my last batch cost me, plus shipping. Leave a few out on the table at a time, so you don't simply blow thru them with tire kickers. You never know when someone who looks, may not have the cash on hand for something right then, but may want to get in touch with you later. They can't do that if they don't have your contact info. A nice forged card holder also isn't a bad idea.

 

While it's a bit early, start a portfolio of your work. Ever time you make a project, take the time to take some decent picts of it, either against a neutral back ground like a white sheet, or an "in use" pict, if the pict isn't too cluttered with background stuff. Put that book out on the table as well. You may only make one towel bar for the show, but if it sells and someone sees a pict of it in your book, they can ask you to make one for them. Also with "odd" items, you only need to have made the 1st one. I have no reason to have a 6' high cooking tripod out on display, but there's on in my book that I made on request of a friend. That tripod often gets more comments than other things in my book, even if it is very simple. I wished I'd taken more picts of stuff I did in the past.

 

Display... Often over looked by many, how you display items can have a big impact on how things sell. I saw a really neat idea at one show. The seller was using an old tongue and groove bead board barn door as his table top, complete with faded and missing paint. It fit the look of the forged items quite well. I plan to make myself a nice T&G table top and give it that "pickled" look it for my display next year. A pile is a poor way to display something on average, Put extras under the table out of site, and keep a clean neat display of a few of each item. I forget who here has a small "stump" that they drilled holes in to display drive hooks and such, I also thought that was a nice "rustic" idea. It also takes stuff and goes vertical with it increasing your display space. Hanging things... I found hanging some items from my tent frame can help. as long as  it's not over whelming. It also get it above people standing in front of the table and gives you a better "presence" from a distance. I have a small 4 candle "chandelier" that I made out of parts I was doing practice work with. I hang it off to one side of my tent at eye level and people can see it from quite a ways away. It always attracts comments from buyers. A guy I know does frames that usually have a dog boat or other item done in various metal shapes sort of like pictures. He hangs these on the back wall of his tent with a white backdrop so they stand out, are easy to see at a distance as they are up high, and show up well against the neutral back drop. This leaves his table free for the turned pens he also sells at shows.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't tell you how grateful I am for all this wisdom-sharing.... Seriously grateful. My very rough snail was mostly about learning the process, I'm embarrassed by the scroll as my "real" scroll work has gotten pretty good, but as I said this was end of a long and 100 degree forging day and just a "let's see how this thing is done" kind of piece. I pretty much always produce one rough one-off before getting serious. I'd also never worked with rebar which is a bit harder than the material I normally work with! Next one will be better and easier....next 40 will be even better! I am learning slowly about how to best do multiple pieces at a time, in a more Production Mode, same step times twelve on each piece, move to next step on all 12, etc. Also learning the value of jigs and a Recipe Book when I get comfortable with a piece so I have the dimensions and process at hand.

I like the idea of thinking price and THEN thinking what product fits there....that's really excellent advise and will make this easier on me when I finally sit down to start pricing stuff.

And all the advice about how to do a first craft show....thanks!! I'm going to print that out and keep it! I have plenty of pecan pieces sitting around after some storm damage some months back, I will try to incorporate a small stump or two. I have Amazons new card reader ready to go on my iphone, and vistaprint has already sent business cards and a banner - on both I have gone to pains to list myself as a "blacksmith hobbyist" out of deference and sincere respect for you real blacksmiths. There's a difference, at least in my head, between a Newbie weekend iron warrior (or in my case perhaps iron maiden!) and the real deal.

Thanks all, truly excellent advice and I appreciate it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Production Mode, same step times twelve on each piece, move to next step on all 12, etc. Also learning the value of jigs and a Recipe Book when I get comfortable with a piece so I have the dimensions and process at hand.

 

Your production mode, same step times twelve for each piece, means you have to reheat each piece for the next step. Find a way to do as much as possible using one heat each. For an S hook, cut to length, HEAT and pig tale one end for all pieces. HEAT and pig tale the other end AND make the loop AND round to square and twist the center. HEAT and make the other loop.

 

This means that you must learn and use your fire to your advantage. One piece in the center of the fire, one piece at the edge of the fire, and a couple of pieces on top of the fire getting warm. Rotate top to edge, edge to center, and center to the anvil. Learn how to control the fire so the center piece is HOT but will not burn. Be careful doing this as there is always a piece ready for the anvil whether you are rested and ready or not. Set your own pace so you can take a break every hour or so, or when needed.

 

Recipe Book is a most valuable tool. As you move on to bigger and better things (and other projects) you will forget the lengths, processes, and shape of the jigs. Take photos and add them to the page. You can tell the projects I made most often by the burn marks on the edges of the book pages. Please send me a copy of your book one when you start book two. (grin)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 I pretty much always produce one rough one-off before getting serious.

 

Always a good plan. When ever I'm doing a complex project, I do "test" samples of the various steps. That lets me work out sizes, how much the bar changes when I do a certain process, how things fit, and things like order of operations ( what needs to be done in what order, like you learned in tapering the curl.)

 

Often my test pieces will be full of punched reference marks that I can use with my sketch book to make notes. When I was going to make the legs on my forge, I needed to upset the foot, then slit, upset and drift two different holes at 90 deg to each other and make sure all 4 legs turned out exactly the same. My 1st "test" was the simple leg upset. I took a decent length bar, measured up 12" from the end, and punched it for reference, then did the upset I liked. Now I can measure from my reference to the end, and know how much shorter the leg is. If I reduced the length by 2", I know I need to do that on all 4 pieces. I did the same thing with the slit and drifted holes. I came up from that same reference 12" and made another punch for reference, then split the difference and punched for where the center of my  hole would be. After I slit upset and drifted the hole to the size I wanted, I checked my references again and recorded the info in my book. Now I knew I shortened the inside reference by 1 1/2" to get my 1/2" square upset hole. It also gave me information on where exactly that hole was in reference to the "end" I'd just upset. Actual dimensions didn't matter at this point, only that I could use the numbers I had to make adjustments to locate my final hole in relationship to other items. Same thing went for hole #2. Here I could see if the information I gained in drifting the 1st hole worked to actually locate the 2nd one at a given location I chose.

 

In the end I had 10 or 12 "tests". Some screw ups, some useful, some that I might even be able to use. All that information was saved in my book, so that a few weeks later when I chose to make a 2nd cross bar, I knew exactly how much to upset and how much I needed to fuller out for my tenon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a further bit, wrt. "moving product" (and putting more $'s in the pot) also think of 3 for the price of 2 concept most people can't resist a 'deal' and then end up spending double what the intending to spend and still walk away with the feeling of 'score':)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Use the Wendy burger technique, single patty sandwich, double patty sandwich, or triple patty sandwich. They choose what they want, you get paid no matter what they choose. And if you want fries with that, we will add in a drink, no charge. The total is less then the sum of the individual parts.  The drink is just pennies but they think they got a deal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Spanky, looks  good.  Sell it !,  FYI...  I still see every errer in every blade I made.  Most other people never may notice or mind of they do, but I do.  Such is the nature of the beast.

 

A wise man once said, Art-work is never finished, mearly abandoned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a thought on the design. How about leaving a tail by having the scroll in the middle? Taper both ends then wind the scroll in the middle ending up with the body on one side. Then bend to shape. Dishing the scroll out in the middle will add some depth, and also make the overall look more appealing ($$), it would also help with getting the body aligned. Of course you would end up with left, and right handed snails, whereas your original design is more universal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A couple things from me Spanky. Size isn't so important after material and fuel costs are figured. A little ol key chain can most certainly be worth more than a snail. $10 for either is lowballing yourself. Of course that's just me. In 95 I was a demonstrator at the State Fair and demoing one of my old stand byes a leaf finial wall hook with a twist on the shank. I was in shape and much more practiced so I maintained a patter with the audience and explained step by step start to finish was around 7 minutes. Takes me better than 20 mins now. <sigh>

 

My associate of the time kept telling me I was charging too much at $10.00 ea. and set of four for $35.00. I got really tired of listening to him so I doubled the price to $19.95 ea. a set of four for $74.95. Yeah, dropping the nickle makes a difference. I REALLY wished I hadn't done that, I couldn't keep a hook on the table for people to look at. Under $20.00 and fits a pocket sells like hotcakes.

 

People who buy hand forged work aren't paying for the device itself. You can buy coat hooks, hinges, cabinet hardware, tools, garden stuff, railingss, gates, etc. etc. at Lowes for a small percent of what we charge. SHOULD charge. What they're buying is multi fold: Unique items, no matter how hard we try every one will be a little different, Hand made, it's not popped out of a machine. but most important to most folk is BRAGGING RIGHTS.

 

That's right I sell bragging rights. Ever hear someone brag about how little a piece of art cost? Even as a kid I hated going over to other peoples house with my folks we were doomed to walk around and admire how much every darned THING cost from carpets, love seats to vases and knick knacks.

 

Bigguns has a good suggestion Re. a head and tail but as a blacksmith I simply MUST have suggest a variation or I'd have to hand in my BS membership.  A snail has a shell head and tail.

 

Here's how I'd do it. I'd roll the body scroll then bend the bar forward and double it back under the shell for the tail. A little forging to make the fold tight will allow me to flatten the bottom of the foot so it'll stand well, There'll be enough mass on the head to forge feelers and eyes, Heck a smile. <wink> Forging a taper in the tail will again allow me to flatten the bottom of the foot for that snailley look on the table.

 

I think I'd pass on the slime dispenser though.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice idea Frosty on how to better make the snail. I'll have to dig a bit and see if I can't dig up a thread where you posted up your leaf finial hook. I don't think I've seen it.

 

I'll make one comment on your story. I agree that you are selling a show when you do a demo and have items for sale. You do loose some however if you just have a table that you are sitting behind without the fire, say a flea market at the local school gym. There your showmanship has to change some what as people are just looking at finished product, not the transformation of material. If this is the case, video can be your friend. Having a laptop open on the table showing a video of you forging out some of the pieces can substitute for the fire and give people that same experience.

 

 

I did hear an interesting thing at ABANA this years from one of the venders. He mentioned that rather than forge out the stem and roll the stem into a ring on leaf key chains, he leaves the original parent stock ( in this case 3/8" square) and simply drills the stock for the key ring. Then the customer has something to remind them of what it originally was when they show others the key fob they watched get transformed before their eyes. He mentioned he sells more of those than he does the more "finished" examples, and they are faster and easier to make.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like your snail!
For my first year of blacksmithing I gave almost everything away, and gave them a price if anyone else wanted one.
Most of us are a little strange in ome way, and I found some folks got really upset at a fair price- like you just made this yourself why is the price so high? Like your time wasn't worth anything. That stopped when I began giving the item to them for free with the price for the next item like that.
Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I found some folks got really upset at a fair price- like you just made this yourself why is the price so high? Like your time wasn't worth anything. That stopped when I began giving the item to them for free with the price for the next item like that.

 

Problem I see with that Dave is that you loose that way. While I'll grant you that you were going to practice anyways and that has value, you ought to at least break even on something you are "giving" away. That way you are simply giving away your time, not materials. ( We can go into what your time is worth separately) If nothing else, that material could always have been reforged into another project that you could have learned from. If nothing else, you'd get the experience of how to straighten out and fix "screw ups". That in itself is worth quite a bit. Time will come when you are doing something important and things do not go the way you plan. Now you will have to either trash what you have already done, or try and straighten things back out to a previous step so you can retry. I often don't think that today enough people are forced to learn from their mistakes like they did when material was a lot more valuable than time and labor was. Today you just whack off a new chunk often and start over ( assuming you aren't forging a special piece of wrought or something costly like Monel or bronze. Back even as little as 100 years ago, you would have been expected to take things back to at least a useable  shape, if not repair what you messed up. The material was just too valuable. Not so in today's disposable age.

 

What I have found over the years is that people like that are "cheap". Many always want to talk big that they will have more work for you if you cut them a break now. I don't think I've ever found that to be true. The only people who bring me repetitive work are those that value my work, and if I charge a fair price, they are willing to pay it.

 

If I'm doing "work" for a friend, like lets say the fire pit tripod I forged for a friend who also runs the 4-H shooting sports program I'm part of, I want to at least get my materials and possibly fuel covered. My "time" I wrote off as when I did it, I was doing the blacksmithing demo at the Grange fair, so I'd have been hammering on hot steel anyways. She however does understand the value of labor, and insists on giving me more than I ask, even though to point 3 rods on one end and roll 3 eyes, plus make a 3" forged ring probably only took me 15 minutes at most even with interruptions at the fair. I'm sure the towel bars I plan to make for her will be the same way. I'll get to practice for "free" and she'll probably toss in a few bucks that will go into my tool fund.

 

 

She does know that what I charge her is not what I will charge others for the same item, and that she is getting a "deal" because she is a good friend. She also is showing off my work to others, so the "advertizing" and exposure to others with similar interests in old farm hardware etc is worth a fair bit on it's own, and it also lets me build up my portfolio of projects that I can show others at demos and shows without having to have a bunch of pieces sitting in stock tieing up funds for items someone may or may not buy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice idea Frosty on how to better make the snail. I'll have to dig a bit and see if I can't dig up a thread where you posted up your leaf finial hook. I don't think I've seen it.

 

I'll make one comment on your story. I agree that you are selling a show when you do a demo and have items for sale. You do loose some however if you just have a table that you are sitting behind without the fire, say a flea market at the local school gym. There your showmanship has to change some what as people are just looking at finished product, not the transformation of material. If this is the case, video can be your friend. Having a laptop open on the table showing a video of you forging out some of the pieces can substitute for the fire and give people that same experience.

 

 

 

 

I don't know if I still have leaf hooks I made that aren't screwed into the barn somewhere. I do have a number students made though, I couldn't convince them to keep them to compare to later work. Still it's kind of cool having some around for a reminder.

 

I have to admit I'm very much a hobbyist I don't do shows and have never sat at a booth or table selling. I could be completely off base pricing for a show booth. On the other hand I do consider counter offers at demos.

 

I'm going to dig out some #4 rebar and give a snail a try maybe tomorrow, depends on if something comes up or not.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...