pelallito Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Hello to all, First post here, but have been a lurker for a while as I learned from your posts. I am in the process of building a Freon tank forge. I am copying Wayne Coe's tutorial as far as cutting the tank in two pieces and using hinges to hold the two halves together. I cut the tank in two and then used paint stripper on the exterior and finished the stripping with a wire brush. Then I gave the interior and exterior a coat of high temperature paint. I still need to finish cutting the front and back holes in the tank and tinkering with the hinges to make the two halves fit together better. I have some kaowool that a friend gave me. I am wondering what type of burner to make. I would like to make a venturi fed ribbon burner. Can something like that work? Something like this-http://joppaglass.com/burner/garage.html The Garage Burner. I would move the inlet point obviously. I am getting into bladesmithing from stock removal and wanted a larger forge than my 2 brick forge. Thanks for your help, Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Good Morning, Fred Ribbon Burner Blower was a topic here in 2011. John Emmerling wrote an article in the Hammers Blow and the NWBA Newsletter. There is lots of information available. Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Fred, I would have cut it lower (I'm sorry that there are no pictures on the tutorial) You can see pictures at http://hybridburners.com/forge-comments.html then scroll down to Dragon Forge in Tennessee. I just yesterday finished my Ribbon Burner Forge made from a 30# bottle. Wow! On the first heat I heated a piece of 5/8" round to forging temp at 2# propane pressure and timed it at 2 minutes. I believe that is going to save some gas! You do have to use a blower and have no hot spots, or maybe I should say that the whole interior is a hot spot. I did mount it from the top blowing strait down. I was surprised to see that the flame came down to the floor then divided and had tow swirling vortexes (or is that vortesxi?) I am very pleased and I thank John Emmerling for his information and BTW he made my burner for me. What a friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pelallito Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 Swede, thanks for that link. Wayne, I did look at the photo at hybrid burner, but did not see that you cut it lower. I went there now following your link and it is obvious, my bad! If I can't make it work, I will get another tank and start over.:( John Emmerling is a good friend indeed! Do you have any photos of your new set up? Especially of the ribbon burner, number of holes. I am considering making the one for this tank about 8" long and 1 1/2" wide with 2 lines of holes of about 1/4" diameter. I will make the burner first and try it with an injector, and if it doesn't work I can always plumb in a blower. Any and all advice happily accepted. Thanks, Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Fred, I will be adding a tutorial for building the Ribbon Burner to my web site and will be adding the special castable soon. I suggest that you make the burner from 3" square and about 6 inches long with 3 lines of holes. Make the holes by using crayons for the holes. You then drill out the crayons after the casting has cured.. You could just burn them out but that is a big stinky mess. If you make one from 1.5" square tubing with only two lines of holes let me know how it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Kailey Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 love my ribbon burner. once hot and working out of one end of it I can run .75lb of psi I am getting about 45-50 hrs from 25 gallon tank. my forge it 20" deep and about 10" round on the inside, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pelallito Posted August 27, 2014 Author Share Posted August 27, 2014 Wayne, After reading and thinking about your advice of going bigger, I remembered an article I had read. Where the gentleman used a hard fire brick and drilled his holes in it, then built a steel box around it. If I don't cut it down it should be 9x4.5x2.5. I have some of those. David Kailey, Thanks for telling me about your forge. Do you use a blower to make it work? I am gathering bits and pieces so that I can continue on the build. Priced a kiln shelf locally at $26, am going to check internet sources and prices too. Thanks for the help. Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I have one question about your ribbon burners. Are they NA or guns? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Ribbon burners require a blower but well worth it. I am running less than 2 pounds pressure and the heat comes up really fast. Takes less time and uses less gas. Sounds like a win win to me except you will then work harder, be more tired at the end of the day so drink more beer. Well, there goes all the money you saved on gas. The way we are building the Ribbon Burners is casting them. I would guess that you could drill holes in a hard fire brick but wouldn't casting using crayons and then drilling them out be easier than drilling about 30 holes in a fire brick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 I thought as much but I was hoping you'd figured out how to make a NA ribbon burner. Back to pondering. <grin> Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJergensen Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Joppa Glassworks has NA ribbon setups for kilns (mostly). Also shows a small NA firebrick forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Wille Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Hey Frosty, Have you ever tried one of your T-Burners with a ribbon burner? I've thought about an NA ribbon myself on and off again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Wille Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Also, as a side note, maybe the key to a NA ribbon burner is a thinner refractory block and larger plenum? Here is a Link to Dudley Giberson's (of Joppa Glassworks) patent: LINKY Notice there is a large plenum, and a thin burner face,as compared to the 2"-3" thick burner faces commonly used of ribbon burners now. Some interesting food for thought. I don't mean to suggest that we run him out of business and steal his ideas, only that we look at and learn from his developments from the NA ribbon burner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I have indeed given a NA ribbon burner thought I just don't need heat that even in my forges, I'm not a bladesmith guy so I don't do much heat treating. The thing I've had most luck with messing with NA burners is making sure the the cross sectional area of the system increases the farther it gets from the throat. Every time it turns a corner it wants to increase a bit to prevent back pressure or a "recoil shockwave". I don't recall just what it's called but it's basically an eco when a flow or pressure wave hits an obstruction. Expansion chambers on 2 stroke engines reflect the exhaust back into the engine to help purge the remaining exhaust and create a low pressure zone so intake is stronger. (I'm sure I only have THAT a little right, I can't remember the last time I had a 2 stroke engine apart and my genius, mechanical wizard high school friend didn't move to Alaska when I did.) Anyhow, I haven't messed enough to get good performance a 90* turn down stream from the throat. I'm thinking a plenum large enough to damp standing waves and burner holes equaling maybe 2x the tube area as a start. Were I to want a ribbon burner a gun is just so easy to make and I know they work so . . . Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pelallito Posted August 30, 2014 Author Share Posted August 30, 2014 Frosty and everybody, I would like to make the ribbon burner work NA. Do you think that a 1" tee would be large enough for a Frosty burner adaptation or should I go larger? If I have to, I can always get and plumb in a blower if I have to. I have not had a chance to work on the forge this week, but hope to make some progress this weekend. I can't get the kiln shelf until next week because the store closed for early long weekend. maybe I can use two thin hard fire brick as temporary spacers. Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 One of the major vulnerabilities of any NA burner has is back pressure. A 1" burner tube has a cross section area of 0.7854 sq/in area at the throat. After 9" length it will need to enlarge a maximum of of 1:12 ratio. That being 2x the area in 12" An increase of the diameter by that diameter's area in 12x it's length. So, a 1" dia. tube will become a 1.25" dia tube in 12". That's the MAX increase to maintain a smooth flow, greater and it will create bad turbulence. All that said feeding a plenum and ribbon burner afterwards requires application of the 1:12 rule of thumb. How that works I don't know, I haven't experimented. I'd planned on feeding a 3/4" x 6-7inch burner tube into a 1" plennum approximately 8" long feeding: 32 ea. 1/4 dia. burner nozzles. Those numbers are just where I'd START experimenting and try to come up with something that'd work. For the experimental ribbon I'd just drill the holes in soft fire brick. I'd make my own drill bit with a length f 5/16" rd. grind a taper to 1/4" and using a jeweler's file or sharp chisel make cutting edges the length of the taper. Once I had a working prototype I'd probably cast it but it's not on my list of things to mess with. Still, I can feel blades trying to draw me to the dark side. I never say never, usually. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 I did some more reading this week and found that indeed there are non blown ribbon burners but think that the indication is that it takes a LOT of gas. You might check out Pine Ridge Burners for some info. Also Joppa Glassworks. There are links to both of these further up on this thread. Jymm Hoffman had a (I think he called it) Slot Burner and I think that there was s tutorial in the Hammer's Blow. I think that basically I think that he bent the end of the burner pipe to form a narrow long slot. http://www.hoffmansforge.com/?s=forge I just read that page and it appears that he is using a blower but gave no information about the burner. You might check with Jymm and see about his burner and if it requires a blower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 (edited) I have talked to Jymm Hoffman via email about his "slot burner" He claims that they will burn household pressure natural gas (using forced air of course) and weld in a propane tank type or smaller forge. I believe there is a thread here in this section albeit a fair piece back into the archives Edit: Hmmmm maybe not. may be too old to come up in a search with normal parameters Scott Edited September 1, 2014 by Dodge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wpearson Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 I have talked to Jymm Hoffman via email about his "slot burner" He claims that they will burn household pressure natural gas (using forced air of course) and weld in a propane tank type or smaller forge. I believe there is a thread here in this section albeit a fair piece back into the archives Edit: Hmmmm maybe not. may be too old to come up in a search with normal parameters Scott Is this it '?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Is this it '?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>> Yes, that's the one! Post #8 in that link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pelallito Posted September 1, 2014 Author Share Posted September 1, 2014 wpearson, Thanks for the links! That slot burner is a lot easier to make than a ribbon burner and would give a diffused flame, if that is the right term. I have black iron in 1" size. Even though I would have to go to a blower, which I have been trying to avoid. Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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