Small press

[Rainbows]

 

Another mystery tool, picked it up at a car boot sale. Seller didn't know what it did either. A bit worse for wear but it still moves and has some spring to send it back up. doesn't have any makers mark.

Total height is 25cm

 

 

[njanvilman]

A small press that could be tooled up with various sized punch and dies for lightweight work, such as punching holes in leather, light sheet metal, pushing out rivets, etc.

[Rainbows]

trying to find a way to get the top tool off now. looks like it could have flared a leather rivet

[Alan Evans]

Looks a bit like my Grandmother's pop fastener riveter for leatherwork. That stands about 200mm (8") high




Alan

[Rainbows]

Do you know how to change the tooling on yours? Don't want to rupture something on mine trying to prise it off.

[Alan Evans]

Both are just grub screw/pinchbolt I seem to remember. The top add on bit I can't remember quite what it was but the end of the plunger/ram is hollow dished so it supports the curved cap of the pop fastener. The bottom tool was double ended and had two different sized tits in the middle which spread the hollow rivet.

 

There was a little stepped spike sticking out the face of the front tube which I think was for pre-assembling and holding the popper parts and then you pushed pre-punched leather onto it.   Ah!   just had another look at the photo and see that the spike was on when I took the photo, you can just about make it out.

 

Maybe just try giving it a gentle warm up and flood some penetrating oil around it as it cools down to get it to suck in?

 

Alan

[arftist]

It is a jeweler's flypress. I have one a bit bigger. Looks like yours is set up with a sheet metal punch in the ram and matching die in the base. Even though it is tiny, it is still a useful tool in a smithy. Read about flypresses here and across the street. Yours would be useful for incising decorative lines in a bar for example. 

[Alan Evans]

It is a jeweler's flypress. I have one a bit bigger. Looks like yours is set up with a sheet metal punch in the ram and matching die in the base. Even though it is tiny, it is still a useful tool in a smithy. Read about flypresses here and across the street. Yours would be useful for incising decorative lines in a bar for example. 

Does your jewellers press have such a fast acting spiral? I would not have thought Rainbow's or mine powerful enough to punch much more than shim brass. Though his frame looks more workmanlike than mine his spiral is similarly very quick acting.

 

Mine definitely was for riveting on the pop fasteners I still have some of the old 1930s stock fasteners that were with it!

 

Alan

[arftist]

Does your jewellers press have such a fast acting spiral? I would not have thought Rainbow's or mine powerful enough to punch much more than shim brass. Though his frame looks more workmanlike than mine his spiral is similarly very quick acting.

 

Mine definitely was for riveting on the pop fasteners I still have some of the old 1930s stock fasteners that were with it!

 

Alan

Actually yours was set up for riveting but like any press, large or small can be tooled for whatever work can be done within it's tonnage. 

 

Kind of like post vises. They were far from the exclusive tools of blacksmiths. Whitesmiths, tinsmiths and many other trades used them as well, just like Machinists vises of today are used by all the trades, even wood workers usually have one. 

 

The area I live in was at one time a world center of the costume jewelry business. I have many (dozens) of small presses of every type imaginable which were once used in the jewelry industry. 

[Alan Evans]

Actually yours was set up for riveting but like any press, large or small can be tooled for whatever work can be done within it's tonnage. 

 

Kind of like post vises. They were far from the exclusive tools of blacksmiths. Whitesmiths, tinsmiths and many other trades used them as well, just like Machinists vises of today are used by all the trades, even wood workers usually have one. 

 

The area I live in was at one time a world center of the costume jewelry business. I have many (dozens) of small presses of every type imaginable which were once used in the jewelry industry. 

 

 

I agree with everything you say here of course. But the tonnage is key. You have not answered my question regarding the speed of action of the OP's press and your "jeweller's press".

 

I do not think it is a "jeweller's press" because:-

 

The significant difference between the OP's press and any metalworking fly press I have seen is as I pointed out to you before; the speed of the action / pitch of the helix. On the OP's and my Grandmother's the drive thread or Helix is designed to move the ram over its full stroke in around a quarter of a turn of  the handle. Metalwork fly presses have a much smaller pitch Helix to generate more pressure.

 

The ram guide on mine is merely a milled-in slot and locating pin on a round spindle, and it appears the same on the OP's. It is neither robust nor precise enough to prevent any tooling to turn, which limits the use to a controlled light squeeze using concentric circular tools.

 

Hence my question to you for a comparison with your press thread/helix.

 

You now say little presses are not exclusive to blacksmiths, with which I obviously agree, but yet you stated originally that the OP's press was "a jeweller's press". It was precisely this exclusivity in your statement that made me query your conclusion.

 

Why jeweller?

 

Alan

[ianinsa]

Alan, you're just being obtuse! And just why would you want logic to substantiate someone's subjective conclusion? I mean 'lots' of 'fly-presses' have a fast action, and the 'nut-crackers' have a slow action, don't they?...........
Sorry I couldn't help myself chaps.

My 2 cents worth would be, that helix would be fast acting and thus 'lite' ideal for actions like leather punching and flattening grommets , rivets etc. If you want to punch a 10mm hole in 3mm plate you might just shorten the useful life of that press. Nice press BTW.

[Alan Evans]

Alan, you're just being obtuse! And just why would you want logic to substantiate someone's subjective conclusion? I mean 'lots' of 'fly-presses' have a fast action, and the 'nut-crackers' have a slow action, don't they?...........Sorry I couldn't help myself chaps.My 2 cents worth would be, that helix would be fast acting and thus 'lite' ideal for actions like leather punching and flattening grommets , rivets etc. If you want to punch a 10mm hole in 3mm plate you might just shorten the useful life of that press. Nice press BTW.

I have again learnt something new, thank you Ian! I have just looked 'obtuse' up. All these years I had thought that the non-trigonometric meaning of "obtuse" applied to the person making a badly worded or fudged description, a proactive event. Now that I see it is usually applied to the intelligence or attitude of the person receiving the description...pause...thinks....'Ere hang on a bit, you implying I'm a knucklehead? .....That would only be partially justifiable. :)

Ignorance is only a lack of knowledge, nothing to be ashamed about...celebrating and rejoicing in the surety of your lack of open-mindedness is another thing! :)

In my thirst for knowledge and enlightenment therefore I am trying to find out from arftist why he called the OP's press specifically a "jeweller's press"...what are the distinguishing features of such a thing as opposed to any other type of fly press so I will know for next time.

Maybe it was just a throw away line and his generic name for all small presses, but in case there is something he knows and I don't, I am asking the question.

Simple really...and I am not just referring to my brainpower whatever you say! :)

Alan

[arftist]

Simple really Allen. 

In reality you are of course correct, since as I stated any press can be used for any purpose within it's capacity. 

 

The reason I called it a jewel's press is relative to my geography, as I already stated. I live in an area which was at one time, the costume jewelry manufacturing center of the world. All my presses, even my # 5 flypress came out of jewelry factories. My #0 can drive good sized tools through pretty thick orange steel, but I can tell I am beating the life out of it. So I got a bigger one and only use the zero as it was intended, for light work in soft thin metal. Not sure how much you have thought about cheap jewelry so I will state the obvious since it seems to be eluding you (again no offense intended). 

 

cheap jewelry is made from very thin, very soft metal. As you said, about thin brass shim stock. Some operations are a small bend, a flash trim, a tiny hole, etc. 

 

Sorry you got so worked up old bean. 

[arftist]

Also Allen, a flypress needs a quick acting screw, if it has a slow acting screw it is a screw press but not a flypress, though they may be otherwise identical. 

[ianinsa]

Ah Artist, here is where you will find many differ with your interpretation! Fly-presses are powerful beasties and make good use of the inertia. When I said Allan was being obtuse I meant deliberately so! That meant the opposite. I have a couple of fly-presses and if someone were to call them 'jewelry' presses that would mean(to me)that they were somewhat lite in the trouser department.

My presses easily work steel cold and you can easily punch a 1/2" hole in 1/4" plate.

Ian

[ianinsa]

Ignorance is only a lack of knowledge, nothing to be ashamed about...celebrating and rejoicing in the surety of your lack of open-mindedness is another thing! :)



 
I'm a believer that ignorance is easily cured but stupidity is like HIV mostly preventable, self inflicted and lasts forever!









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[Alan Evans]

Sorry for the delay in reply, for some reason I could not get onto Iforgeiron for a few days.

Simple really Allen. 
 
Sorry you got so worked up old bean.

Well I thought it was simple, but it is proving otherwise :) interesting nonetheless….
 
It is intriguing that we have a not altogether dissimilar experience, but have come to different conclusions. When I left college in the early seventies I supported myself by working as a jeweller/silversmith for 5 or 6 years and although I never worked "in the trade" made frequent trips into the jewellery quarter of Birmingham taking stuff into the Assay Office and to buy tools and material supplies….I had a friend who had inherited his grandfather's chain making company and some of the brilliant home-made semi-automatic silver chain making machines he ran there were a joy to behold. Wonderfully Heath_Robinson, like Tinguely kinetic sculptures in miniature!
 
My initial question to you was prompted by the definitive statement you made "It is a jeweller's press" which contradicted the cosy chat that the OP, NJAnvilman and myself were having around the general consensus of opinion that it was a riveting or eyeleting press. Had you prefaced your statement with "Around here we call them"… or "I think it is…" I would have read it as a contribution of information rather than as one correcting what we had already said. 
 
But... I still do not think it is a general metalworking press whether for the jewellery trade or any other. I certainly do not think it would be anything like man enough to "line bars" as you suggested.
 
My initial question (still unanswered) to you was for a comparison with the speed of the action of your jewellers press. The size and the pitch of the drive helix which was the most obvious (to me) indicator that this was not a general metalworking press or indeed jeweller's press. The thing I have been at some labour now to get you to look at is the difference between the helix' pitch of the your jeweller's press and that of the OP's. And while you are at it compare the guide system and size of the ram…
 
I attach this photo of my Gran's little press beside one of my Flypresses so you can get a direct comparison and hopefully see what I have been trying to get at. The Op's press is 50mm (2") taller.
 

 
Every press I have seen used for metalworking has a far more robust guide system than these little presses. They have all had either a dovetail or square ram running in guides, these have just a slot in a round spindle…(at least I think I read the OP's photo correctly and it is separate from the helical drive shaft like my Gran's). In my Gran's press that ram spindle is only Ø10mm (Ø3/8") the OP's may be slightly more @ Ø12mm (Ø1/2"), whatever…they both are tiny. Which is why I spoke of concentric tools, they certainly could not provide for any side thrust or precision alignment.
 

Also Allen, a flypress needs a quick acting screw, if it has a slow acting screw it is a screw press but not a flypress, though they may be otherwise identical.

I am not quite sure why you preface you statement about quick acting screws with "Also" as though I have been saying something to the contrary. My view is that the term 'screw press' covers all. The speed of the action / pitch rate of the helix is what determines the power and use to which the machine can be put. 
 
The fly press, as I know it, is a type of screw press that utilises the momentum of weights or flywheel to change the type of pressure and is in order to overcome the inertia of tools like sheet metal punches. The momentum giving it a crack as opposed to a squeeze. It is a similar relationship as that between hydraulic press/powerhammer/drophammer. With their spring return and minimal mechanical advantage these little hand presses are closer to toggle or lever presses than a fly press in their power and action.
 
I agree that the OP's press could well have been made originally for a role in the jewellery business, or any other, closing the claws on stone settings springs to mind. It could have been made for the leatherwork industry and subsequently modified for metalworking, as indeed I was going to do with my Gran's…I was going to make little Ø1.6mm (Ø1/16") punch tools but it did not feel robust/precise enough. But...going by the tooling in the OP's (which looks to me like an eyelet spreader) the line of least resistance suggests to me that that is probably nearer the mark than a "Jeweler's press" or general metalworking press.
 
I managed to dig out the little punch I eventually made up for my jewellery work from an old cam action lead seal crimper. The punch diameter is Ø1.3mm (Ø0.05") and the mechanical advantage is around 40:1
 

 

The lever drop arm on my Grans's press is 100m (4'') from the spindle and maximum rotation is just under half a turn giving around 300m (12" ) sweep for a ram movement of 20mm (3/4") something like 15:1? The OP's press looks even faster action, 10 or 12:1? On the fly press in my photograph above I think the mechanical advantage is in the order of 60:1
 
The end result of the discussion that I was/am hoping for though is to get and share more information and insight into these little presses. And indeed, to take on board that it is a "jeweller's press" if you can convince me! :)
 
I am only (slightly) sorry that you take my enthusiasm for all things mechanical as "getting worked up about it".
 
Alan
 
p.s. What is the saying about the perceived difference between obsession and enthusiasm? something like "One man's fanaticism is another man's interest"….any ideas Ian?

[jacobd]

Let me interrupt this arguement with a statement. "I WANT ONE OF THOSE, EVEN THE LITTLE ONES!!" I think both of you know this better than me and will not contribute to this argument. However, let me leave you with a thought. Think of the connotations we put to words according to where we live. Even as far as considering a large enough geographical difference to amount to the change in connotations as a different dialect. Another thought. So many tools are used other than their intended purpose. Associating them with what we see them used for could add up to a lot. Just keep it chill guys. Anyone openly questioning someone else's intellect without providing constructive feedback is probably hiding something about their own. Don't be that guy. Peace!