GottMitUns Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I know this is not blacksmith related but I respect the opinions of the people on this board so I am posting it here. I manufacture and redress sub surface oil tools for a living and one of the major hassles we run into on a daily basis are 1/4-20 and 10-32 set screws that are froze up in tools and internal threaded connections that are rusted solid. its just about standard operating procedure to use a 36" pipe wrench with a 60" cheater pipe and a large rosebud to tear the tools down. the average tool size is 6" OD and 6 ft long. Once we get the tool into our shop we usual have less that a day to get it torn down, redressed and back to our customer, so a long soak in penetrating oil is not a option. For the last 10 years I have been rolling around the idea of building a pressure vessel that I could drop the tools into, fill it with penetrating oil and then apply pressure ( 10-100 PSI) to see if it would speed the penetrating process. last month I ended up with 2 test chambers with 9" IDs and high pressure unions on them for free, so now the most expensive of the pieces are in place. Has anyone ever tried something like this? I have built Hyro test units that can go to 15000PSI and I test tools to 5,000 PSI daily so I am aware of the dangers that I am working with. Thanks Russell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Just thinking out loud here, but it seems to me that ultrasonic or vibration based systems would be better for that use. As far as a pressure tank, maybe a series of vacuum/pressure cycles to force out trapped air and force in lubricant. Alternating heat and cool cycles with a torch and bucket (plus beating on it with a hammer*) have been the go-to for knuckle-busters working on farm machinery for decades. *"Don't force it son, get a bigger hammer!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Vacuum rather than pressure sits easier with my gut reaction. But I have no experience to draw on... Vacuum pump off my diamond drill and a strong plastic / rubberbag? Fascinated to see how you progress... Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Does not help with frozen up parts short term but long term are you able to replace the set screws with Stainless or Monel? Can you use Anti seize on assembly? A heavy equipment mechanic I used to know used to say If it doesn't get Locktite use anti sieze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GottMitUns Posted August 20, 2014 Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 Vacuum is a interesting idea! Everything gets anti seize at assembly when we do it, but some of the tools we redress are not ours so I cant speak to what others do. The environment they are in is very harsh! Depending on the well they could be exposed to saltwater, dry gas, H2S, petro distillate, crude oil, paraffin, calcium build up, salt build up and 250-400 deg F to boot. Thanks Russell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Even a perfect vacuum (which you can't even achieve) is only 1 atmosphere (14.7 lbs) right? Further, vacuum is going to withdraw from the joints not push in. It seems you have the know how, and the equipment. Let us know what you learn. I would lean towards as high a pressure as you can safely created. The one thing I do know is that oils with tri-flow work the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Russell you forgot "rig hands" from your list---my petroleum geology professor taught me probably the most important thing I every used in the oil patch---"Never turn your back on a roughneck with a hose". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Even a perfect vacuum (which you can't even achieve) is only 1 atmosphere (14.7 lbs) right? Further, vacuum is going to withdraw from the joints not push in. It seems you have the know how, and the equipment. Let us know what you learn. I would lean towards as high a pressure as you can safely created. The one thing I do know is that oils with tri-flow work the best. I don't quite follow you, but you sound very confident! :) If the item is immersed in penetrating oil and the air is removed from the joints why would the oil not be sucked in to replace it? If you pressurise the whole thing, the air in the joints is also going to be pressurised how will the oil displace it? Alan (who did history and Geography at school and not Physics and Chemistry….) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L Smith Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Putting penetrating oil on the screw and heating the area around the screw for expansion always worked for me. The tiny bubbles that come up thru the oil is not the oil boiling but trapped air leaving from the heat expansion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Yes, similar here, I normally warm first then put the oil on so as it cools the oil is pulled in. Where possible I also try and apply the oil by running it in via the bolt or stud so that shrinks first and creates nominally more of a gap between the threads. Two instances jumped to mind when Arftist explained why the vacuum idea would not work:- Unscrupulous meat processors who sell more tonnes of meat than walk into the abattoir by evacuating it and replacing the air with saline. Maybe that process is an urban myth even if the practise is not. I once warmed up a bearing housing to aid the sliding in of an Oilite bush and was dismayed to see that the housing filled with a relatively huge amount of oil. I went off to make a coffee and order a replacement for the ruined bearing but when I came back cooling and capillary attraction had sucked most of the oil back in! Phew! :) I had then been told by someone that the sintered bronze bushes are charged with oil by an evacuation process, but it might have been by a "bloke down the pub" who was just guessing…. Alan p.s. My ignorance prompted me to do a search and I have just looked at the nationalbronze.com site re machining sintered bronze and they say "Re-impregnation is recommending after machining. The bearings should be soaked in a bath of hot oil for 1 hour for thorough impregnation." and also "Oil Impregnation- The parts are impregnated with oil through a vaccum process." http://www.nationalbronze.com/pmprocess.php It is an informative site glad I found it! :) Edited August 21, 2014 by Alan Evans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I didn't say it wouldn't work, I merely pointed out that the force of vacuum is limited to atmospheric pressure (14.7 pounds per square inch) while crating pressure (as opposed to vacuum) is only limited by materials and structure (I routinely work with 40,000 P.S.I.). Also, I don't know where you get the confident bit from; I was clear that I didn't know and was merely providing info which may not have been considered. You seem to have taken offense where none was offered and I am sorry for that. I should have quoted the OP like I almost always do. The one thing I do know is that oils with tri-flow work the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRS Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 A few days ago I have seen a comparison of penetration oils here. The result was that 50% acetone and 50% automatic transmission oil works best Cant find the chart right now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GottMitUns Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 Thomas, Early on I spent 6 months as a rigger on a slickline truck, My operators motto was "if I cant fix you well, I'll screw it up so bad nobody else can either!" I still keep that in mind when building things, along with a funny that came across the fax machine one day. The funny was a drawing of a engineer setting at his desk, face buried in his hands with a caption that read " Oh S#&T, you did it just like I told you to!" I will keep y'all posted as this project goes farther. Russell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 If you use air to pressurize you can develop a flammable ratio under pressure, think diesel engine. Bad things can happen. Exclude oxy from the pressurization. It probably isn't an issue at 100psi with regular penetrating oils but if you add something like acetone it could become an issue at the rate of propagation of it's flame front. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Yeah pressurized petroleum is kinda like a bomb waiting for a fuse. Think "flame thrower"! Not sure about the same with vacuum but that gets my vote. When woods are stabilized they are put in a vacuum to draw the finish in as deep as possible. As Alan E suggests, It seems the pen oil would displace the void, however minute, between parts. I'm not a physics expert but it just seems that it would work. Then replace with SS screw where feasible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRS Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 What I wrote earlier was not meant to be tested in the pressure chamber, should have pointed that out, thanks Frosty for making it clear. However, I found the link to the penetrating oil tests: '?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>> I would not replace screws with SS screws unless you know that they fit the specifications. Common SS screws are worse than 8.8 The environment they are in is very harsh! Depending on the well they could be exposed to saltwater, dry gas, H2S, petro distillate, crude oil, paraffin, calcium build up, salt build up and 250-400 deg F to boot. Can you use under those conditions stuff like "liquid film"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I too would be leery of pressurizing a petroleum based fluid. I second ultrasonics, they work amazingly well. You don't mention what brand oil you use, but I would suggest KROIL. They advertise that it will creep into an opening as small as one millionth of an inch. It has worked on everything I have used it on. Other than that, carbide tipped drills to drill them out. I use solid carbide ones at work just because that is what we have available. An induction heater may work better than a rosebud, faster heating on the outer piece. The vacuum pumps we had at the foundry would pull down into the micron range - below atmospheres. A portable tap disintegrating head may also be an option for the set screws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 GottMitUns, One method some auto repair folks use on stuck bolts/nuts is to heat with a torch then spray with some solvent such as PB Blaster, sometimes as much as nearly red hot. Smokes a lot, but the cooling sucks the penetrant into the threads and will often release the stuck component. Don't know if you would want to heat any part of your down-hole tool that hot, but maybe something below black heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I didn't say it wouldn't work, I merely pointed out that the force of vacuum is limited to atmospheric pressure (14.7 pounds per square inch) while crating pressure (as opposed to vacuum) is only limited by materials and structure (I routinely work with 40,000 P.S.I.). Also, I don't know where you get the confident bit from; I was clear that I didn't know and was merely providing info which may not have been considered. You seem to have taken offense where none was offered and I am sorry for that. I should have quoted the OP like I almost always do. Hi arftist, no offence taken, hence the smiley :) On the other hand your slightly defensive tone above indicates you may have. Sorry, none was intended. I am grateful that your comments prompted me to do a bit of research and learn something new! Even a perfect vacuum (which you can't even achieve) is only 1 atmosphere (14.7 lbs) right? Further, vacuum is going to withdraw from the joints not push in. Re reading both of our posts though, I still read you being at the very least, dubious about the effectiveness of vacuum if not directly stating it would not work. I should probably have said that what stimulated my brain to work a bit harder was that you "explained why it may not work very effectively". My "confidence" description was based on the fact that you quoted facts and figures about Vacuum of which I was previously unaware and so I was acknowledging that you were more knowledgeable than I. However I did not follow your reasoning that it was a bad thing that the vacuum would "withdraw from the joints and not push in" hence my asking the two questions of you. I have just noticed a slight Déja Vu on another thread (the small press one in tool i.d.) where you have unequivocally responded firmly with an alternate proposal to mine and I have responded similarly there by asking you a question in order to test our different views… :) They all were/are genuine questions with no "side". Alan P.S. I have sent a PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawnJockey Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 This could be a great science fair project for a mechanically inclined kid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Russell, Think about your tank as a oil vat (your Choice of penetrating type of oil) place the parts in the tank and draw a Vacuum PSI down on the tank . However, Do Not let the liquid get into Gage System (a very good shut off valve or two is best . this will PULL the penetrating oil into the parts . while many do pressurize Wood Vats releasing the vacuum and then adding clean air to the system it is not OX ( OIL & OX are a combustible combination under Pressure ) I would Recommend Just the Vacuum System for what you are doing . Ret, Sgt. Robert D. Yates Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grant Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 For the last 10 years I have been rolling around the idea of building a pressure vessel that I could drop the tools into, fill it with penetrating oil and then apply pressure ( 10-100 PSI) to see if it would speed the penetrating process. Has anyone ever tried something like this?Good morning allRussell - on the low end of your PSI scale, Brosters (pressure deep fat fryers} use pressures of 12 to 14 psi with oils heated to frying temp. -grant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GottMitUns Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 I had a phone call with the guys who make Kroil oil last week about putting it under pressure, they didn't throw any red flags in the air but also said they had never heard of it being done. Right now my plan is to use a dual diaphragm pump to fill the chamber from the bottom and bypass the air out through a needle valve on top. I think the pump will put up around 60PSI. To empty the chamber back into the reservoir my plan is to use shop air pressure. With the volume I am looking at I'm going to need around 25-30 gallons of Kroil! at what that stuff goes far per gallon I see why this isn't a everyday question! But for the one particular tool that got me off top dead center on this project it could pay for itself real quick. the tool is about 5ft long 6" OD 2-1/2" ID with 28 10/32 and 1/4-20 socket head set screws and lo head cap screw in various places on the tool. rounding out the head or breaking any of these screws means a trip into the machine shop for the whole assembly. throwing something like that up on a Bridgeport mill can kind of ruin a machinist day. On a side note my new old shop hand (1 month with me ,25 years in the field) told me about how they used to free up some tool connections and it runs hand in hand with something I learned here. they would heat them with a rosebud until the joint was dull red and quench them in the caustic vat, said it had to be caustic, fresh water just wouldn't do the trick. Didn't "SuperQuench" come about because of something like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 "Didn't "SuperQuench" come about because of something like that?" Yup, IIRC, Sandia Labs was using a tank of lye as a fast quench for mild steel, and the Health & Safety/OSHA guys freaked. A benign alternative was whipped up by Robb Gunter from far less reactive household soaps, table salt and surfactants. And a legend was born. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GottMitUns Posted September 16, 2014 Author Share Posted September 16, 2014 Made a little forward progress on this project today before the rain hit. I have it lengthened to about 6 ft and mounted to a base plat so it will not fall over. here is a pic of the union threads. there is a 400 series O-ring inside the cap. empty capacity is about 22 gallons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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