will52100 Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Anybody got a chart or where I can find a chart for specific rockwell hardness for tempering temps of 1045? I've searched here and google with no luck. It's for a 1045 forging hammer I just finished but haven't heat treated yet. Yes, I know I could get close and good enough with tempering colors, but I've got a heat treat oven and will be using it. Wish I had a hardness tester though, would make figuring on a recipe a lot easier. Can't believe I couldn't find charts on the internet, I can find info on just about any other steel out there. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 I don't think 1045 will even reach Rh 60 in water, maybe super quench honestly you can't differentially temper in the oven any way. Quench in water and put a hot drift in the eye and quench when you just get color. Done bit of reading to refresh the memory, oil quench is going to give you about Rh 55 water just over 60. And temper at 400-450c this assuming you want an old school hard faced hammer 600c if you want softer. I'd still differentially temper personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stash Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 I wouldn't overthink this project- 1045 quenched and tempered to bronze on the face is how we did it in a hammer-making class with Nathan Robinson. You are only hitting hot steel with it, so you can keep things pretty simple. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 600C ? I don't think 1045 will even reach Rh 60 in water, maybe super quench honestly you can't differentially temper in the oven any way. Quench in water and put a hot drift in the eye and quench when you just get color. Done bit of reading to refresh the memory, oil quench is going to give you about Rh 55 water just over 60. And temper at 400-450c this assuming you want an old school hard faced hammer 600c if you want softer. I'd still differentially temper personally. 400C to 600C is H13 tempering temps. are you sure about those numbers ? for 1045 its a sub-critical-anneal at those high temperatures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 My thought was. Some one mis transcribed the report, lol I was coffee deprived and just copied the numbers. My memory told me 400-600 F but I didn't trust it this morning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will52100 Posted August 20, 2014 Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 Thanks, I was figuring on 400-500 for first temper, but still would like to know what RC that would be. I understand differential tempering, and plan on softening the eye. But I would like to shoot for about 50 to 52 RC on the faces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 This is why I'll never be a good blacksmith. I've never cared to ask the RC hardness of even a store bought hammer; let alone a custom made hammer. If it doesn't crack, chip, break or dent when I hit hot metal with it I'm good. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will52100 Posted August 20, 2014 Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 LOL, the same could be said for knives, except maybe for the hitting hot metal! I have no doubt I could simply harden in water and heat the drift and run temper colors to a bronze or straw and have an excellent hammer. But I'd like to know, more for my own curiosity's sake, what the actual hardness is. If it really bugged me I'd send it off to some one who has a hardness tester, temper charts would give me an idea though. Even with knives, a RC reading is just one point in quality control, not an end all be all as hardness tells nothing of grain refinement or if the steel was damaged from overheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Pay attention to what Stash said, this is not a difficult job. When I am making hammers with 1045, I quench in water. I heat the whole head and start to quench the large end first, until water starts to stick to about the end 1/4". I then flip it over to quench the pien end, I flip it back and forth and watch the colour run to a light gold then quench the ends, gently. Leave the heat in the center of the head to push the temper. I harden and temper both ends at one time. Make sure to not hold the head in one depth, you HAVE TO keep moving it to not create a quench crack.. Don't look at it as impossible, just do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will52100 Posted August 20, 2014 Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 Thanks, but I'm not looking at it as impossible, just hoping somebody has an idea of what hardness to expect at what temper temperature. Like say, 52 RC at 400 deg. F, ect. I've done tools like you described and they work well, but I like to know more about the steel I'm working with and I'm coming up empty on google and metallurgy sites. Like I said, it's not a big deal, but more for my curiosity. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I'll see if the ASM handbook mentions anything if I get a chance tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L Smith Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Any local manufacturing type machine shop should have a hardness tester even if they only do aluminum. Only takes about five minutes to test. Ask for the shop foreman. If it does not meet your requirements reheat and quench as stated above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L Smith Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I forgot to add. If you test the face you will have a divot to polish out! Have the test done on the circumference near the face then it wont be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 The proof is in the pudding. If the hammer face doesn't show excess wear after a couple years of use, the temper is correct. it doesn't matter what a hardness tester says. I have made hundreds of hammers with 1045. I use the sequence of hardening and tempering both ends at the same time. The only time there has been a problem is when someone gets greedy and quenches the center of the hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 of course many Aluminum places will be dealing in RhB .... remember to convert to C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 ASM Metals Handbook Vol 2 Heat treating, 8th edition is pretty hard to dig out what you want, as was the 1985 Desk Edition; however the ASM Metals handbook 1948 edition has the chart you want on page 455; though the hardnesses are in Brinell "The Softening of 1045, T1345 an 4045 steels at various temperatures (1 hour tempering)" 400 degF is about 520 brinell 450 degF is about 500 brinell 500 degF is about 480 brinell 600 degF is about 440 brinell Hope I read the graph right; it's past my bed time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will52100 Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 Thanks, I appreciate it. Past my bed time as well, but if I'm reading it rite 400 degF would translate to about 52-53 rockwell C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onenoobie Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Heres a data sheet. http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6130 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will52100 Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 Thanks, can't believe there's not more info on tempering temps and hardness ranges out there. I guess if it ever really bothers me enough I can forged some small pieces out and heat treat them and have them tested. Or eventually get a hardness tester myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJergensen Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 anvilfire has a steel temper color chart that is close to what you want, probably. It has 1040, 1050, 1070 and 1095. You could "interpolate" 1040 and 1050 for 1045. The bigger picture here is that you don't have 1045 with *precisely* .45% carbon. (In fact, the ranges could be such that a single piece of stock could meet both 1040 and 1045 specs! And something purchased as legit 1045 might have less carbon that some 1040 sample.) Your temperature isn't that precise. You don't know heat penetration in the metal. And, a manual quench is fairly variable too. (Especially variable on section size. Ask the bladesmiths. Thin sections quench to much higher harness for the same heat and quench medium). All of that to say, you can look up something on the chart, but that's only roughly what you may have achieved. I like the charts,. But, I try to keep in mind that it's just a ballpark. Unless I'm using engineered quenchants in precise conditions and heat treating ovens and identical stock sections, I can't expect more. swedefiddle is spot on: best harness tester is the using the resulting hammer ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 The data is out there. You need to get a hold of the ASM Heat Treater's Guide. That has all the charts you need for dealing with 1045. By the way, 520 Brinell is about 52 HRc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will52100 Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 Thanks, got it heat treated and everything came out OK. Good info, thanks for sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhartironwerks Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 What will be interesting to see is how well the face holds up and whether or not it mushrooms. I quench 1045/4140 and 4130 in water and do no temper. That includes the 4140 dies on my 60kg Saymak, which have developed a saddle again. Next up is super quench. Industry calls for an oil quench, but reality for me seems to be water. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will52100 Posted August 27, 2014 Author Share Posted August 27, 2014 Just did a 2" thick hardy anvil, basically a 4"x4"x2" square anvil with welded on hardy for detail forging of blades. I used to have a Russian cast steel anvil that I chopped the horn off of that was doing the job, but it was getting banged up. This one is out of 4140, I quenched in water and agitated rapidly, and temped at 400, hopefully it will work good. File test showed it got hard, but not "glass" hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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