Overnight master smiths

[JeremyP]

Lately I've been stumbling around youtube looking for forging videos and I came across a series of videos where a guy is documenting his progress in the trade from building the forge onward. By video 9 he is already building a "katana" basically by taking a chunk of flat bar and just forming the point and the taper. Something about those videos bothers me though, unless this guy has been smithing for many years before making these videos, one does not simply build a sword with basic skills. Perhaps I'm jelous of this persons innate mastery or perhaps I'm just annoyed that with some clever camera work you can make yourself look like a master by saying all the right things and showing just enough to make it look like you building something incredible. This is stark contrast to a true master smith that I know who has been working for years to build hundreds of tantos and other blades in order to develop his skill towards building his first katana. 

I guess my question is this, what's your take on those guys who skip the first 1000 steps to learning the trade and go straight to building  masterpieces?

[monstermetal]

I think there are rare exceptions that just have a innate ability.    I know several that within a few years were doing world class work.        Maybe one out of every thousand who embarks to learn might just find it to be second nature.       That being said it is pretty easy to fake a video,  After all that is what movies are all about.  Making something that is not real look convincing

[jmccustomknives]

It's the internet, where if it on there is gotta be the truth. :rolleyes:   I watch those vids from time to time, the experienced smiths can spot a poser from a mile away.  A forge, hammer and ASO a smith doesn't make.  Just because someone acts like they're doing it right doesn't mean they actually are. <_<   And yes, I'm trying to move from poser status myself.  Been at it for 7 years. ^_^

[KYBOY]

Its possible, there are talents in life that people just naturally excel at. Ive been around and involved in shooting sports all my life..Ive seen 8-9 year old kids who had just picked a gun up and could do things many shooters with years couldent do.

 Ive always thought that you can teach almost anyone, anything but to be truly great you just have to have that god given talent to excel at it..Just like sports. Now I don't know the video your talking about and just like monstermetal said vid's are easy to fake..Perhaps the person has a background in the trades, that would help greatly..Ive found that other craftsman, like woodworkers generally take to smithing much easier and faster than folks with no trade skills. Besides, he may make something that "looks" like a katana but will it "be" a katana..thats a different question entirely?????????????? A really great smith knows the basics too I think. Though terms like "great" are very subjective..Great in ones mind might not be great in another..

[JimsShip]

I think the real question is the quality of his final work.

A person with years of blacksmithing experience and all the tools in the world, can still be matched by a newbie kid with a hammer and a rock if the skill is there.

Learning blacksmithing is easy. I know how to taper, upset, heat, cut and shape metal. I know how to build a forge and manage a fire. (I'll never know everything, and i'm always learning new tricks along the way!) But knowing how something is done and doing it are two different things entirely.

 

You could go to a class, or watch a video (Bob Ross for example) on painting, and someone out there will have the skill to create a perfect landscape, while the others work (like mine) may look like a bad LSD trip.

 

Putting your knowledge to the test and making something worthy of comparison to others here is the real challenge!

Also- is this person claiming to create a katana equal to or in a style of traditional masters, or is he making a do it yourself zombie apocalypse go-to weapon?

[arcc]

I think the real problem with videos is they do not show how many times they messed up, had to grind off a bad spot, ect. For instance a finished movie does not show the one hundred takes it may have taken to get the perfect scene. That said, I believe becoming a master at something means more than just the finished product, but how you got there. A newbie smithing for a few months can make an S-hook that is just as good as a master smith, however the master smith can make the S-hook with hardly any effort(physically, and mentally) exerted.

[JeremyP]

I hestitate to share his video series because my intention is not to bash him in particular, one of my first smithing projects was to build a crude short sword as well. I guess I find there's something gross about producing a video suggesting building a real katana is so simple and basic. I'm not much of a sword enthusiast at all either, I guess Im mostly bothered by the notion of skipping a bunch of skill work and going straight to the final product, especially when I'm so familiar with the authentic process involved with building a 'real' katana from scratch.

 

 

Good choice to keep this an open discussion.  Not mentioning the name keeps this from becoming a bashing session.

[notownkid]

There doesn't seem to be any way to stop people who claim to be something they are not nor ever where, ie. Master Smith, War Hero, Medal Winner, Honest Politician, great teacher, doctor on and on.

Old saying "an expert is anyone more than 25 miles from home with a briefcase".

PT Barnum said "a sucker born every minute" with todays internet and general education standards it would seem PT might want to revise this to "every Second."

Best to uphold your best standards in your work, keep friends who do the same close, and let the fakers pass you by in their Parade of Self Importance. Their Parade is generally Short.

[Frosty]

Yeah, Youtube inspired mythology. It's very much the Hollywood culture incarnate where if you can pretend a thing folk who watch will believe the story. A suspension of disbelief is important to successful story telling, plausible and believable is more important than real. I suspend my disbelief every single day, I learned to read because Mother introduced me to science fiction when she found out I was lagging behind other kids my age.

 

All that just leads to a learned ability to keep reality and make believe separate. Kids haven't learned that and some never do, think UFOlogists and Bigfoot hunters for grownup examples. Sure, maybe but am I going to live my life based on maybe? I'm a function trumps form kind of guy, show me the raw data, keep the maybes for the camp fire and s'mores.

 

I think everybody needs a little recognition, especially youngsters. I know I opened my mouth WAY too often as a kid and I haven't seen anything to make me think it's changed. In the world with the internet, facebook twitter, youtube, etc. anybody can shoot a little with their cell phone, edit on the laptop and post whatever they want.

 

Just take a look at IFI for example. Someone asks a basic question and how many replies from guys who aren't much more advanced get posted? I don't keep track but one of the voices in my head say in the 70-80% range of the replies aren't from folk who actually know what they're saying. Why should it be ANY different on Facebook? I know I get sucked into a thread and can really run my mouth. You don't even want to know how far afield I got on this thread before I just deleted several pages of maunderings.

 

It takes experience to be able to winnow the grain from the chaff and that's one of our main functions here as the old timers, we have that experience and can call BS on what needs calling out. I can be pretty ham handed sometimes but I try not to drive kids off. I'm happy to say some of my friends here will call me out on being too aggressive or whatever, for which I am grateful.

 

While it can be aggravating to see some of the shear BS posted on Youtube I'm glad it gets brought here so we can call it what it is. It's kid stuff to think you can figure out anything and do it fast. Reminds me of a bumper sticker I'd like to have, says, "Hire a teenager while they still know everything." were any of us old guys different as kids? Not unless we lived under conditions or someone who wouldn't put up with it. I was lucky, I had to work in Dad's shop starting around 8yrs. and a spinning shop is an unforgiving place. If you behave like fantasy world is real it'd bleed you  back to reality. Heck even the internet will do that to the careless, look at how many kids now have nude pics online that will be there forever.

 

So, aggravating is what kids do best, I think it's part of our job to help adjust attitudes and hopefully keep beginners from thinking some of these things are real.

 

I guess I'm good with it if I can keep what's really going on in mind.

 

Wow, even after deleting a LOT it's really a long ramble. Oh well. <grin>

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[JeremyP]

Well said frosty! 

[Rainbows]

I found the video and rather than overnight it appears he had 3 months of making Japanese blades for practice and had made his own dies for making the bevels which probably makes the learning curve much shallower. 

[Jack-O-Lantern]

I've been an artist for most of my life and have studied blacksmithing hardcore for a little over a year. I can confidently say that I can make an attractive S.S.O. But if I said I can make a genuine katana then I'd be a balogny salesman. I do have a lot of experience with tools and labor but blacksmithing has its own unique difficulties. Just the fact that the dude said he made a katana shows his ignorance. That's just my opinion as a semi knowledgeable rookie.

[Steve Sells]

needing and using dies for bevels I find very humorous

[ausfire]

Far be it from me to criticise anyone's work, but I have seen some stuff on You-tube that would make even a rank amateur shudder. Some great work too - just have to be selective.

[rockstar.esq]

I think Frosty's points illustrate something of a strange sub-culture surrounding learning in the Internet age.

 

First off, there's going to be hacks in absolutely every field of study.  Rising to a higher level doesn't rid you of bad actors because sadly, dung floats.  I had a college professor demand that we tear out a chapter in our text book because the information was proven wrong!  The fact that there's nonsense being generated does nothing to detract from the knowledge of those that are committed to self improvement.  

 

Sure it's easy to take a pot-shot at a kid making a sword.  How many of us at this point in our lives could actually start at the beginning and become a true master swordsmith?  By that I mean pack yourself off to whatever country the current master is in, learn their language, earn an apprenticeship, and serve faithfully till the mantle is passed?  As a hobby smith, it's not in the cards for me.  

 

Hobby smiths outnumber the professionals by a substantial margin.  That should indicate that cloistered reverence for the craft isn't their primary motivation.  People want to make stuff, and express their ideas.  By extension the odds are good that hobbyists are going to post more videos on things they haven't studied or practiced on to the degree a professional would.

 

Possibly the greatest thing about the internet is the immediate and free exchange of information.  Youtube video's piqued my interest in blacksmithing. I discovered IFI by googling some phrase I heard on a youtube video.  The search led me to a long thread of people snarling about youtube videos being full of bad information!  I was able to find more informative threads which prompted my joining IFI. 

 

During my apprenticeship I had more than one Master Electrician who was an eternal grump unwilling to teach, share, or even speak to an apprentice except to soundly assure us one and all that we knew nothing.  His brand of Mastery would kill the trade.  I learned despite him and those like him.

 

It's really easy to dump on something claiming it's helping the newbies learn.  Horses make fertilizer too but nobody seeks their council.

 

This entire thread is about how we're all looking askance at the second person's telling of a kid's improvement over the course of some youtube videos.  

 

My point is that this thread and others like it aren't promoting knowledge so much as they're chest thumping against a straw man.  I'd love to come here and find someone teaching more often.  A lot of the experts are in "reply" mode rather than "create post".  

 

If you don't like your credentials getting lost in the shuffle of internet egalitarianism, do something that promotes your knowledge.  Wisdom resonates, B.S. splatters.

[ThomasPowers]

well one issue is with self identification; a lot of the great folks will never call themselves a "master" and grump at how little they really know while some quite lesser folks will puff themselves up quite a bit.

[KYBOY]

There are still plenty of smiths out there unwilling to share..When it comes to things they sell and make money from then some can get very stingy with their knowledge. I saw one blast a new kid on a popular internet site once over asking "how he made the handle hole"..crawled all over the kid accusing him of trying to "rip him off" just because he wanted to know how to slit and drift a handle hole..It was shameful..

[rockstar.esq]

Thomas, I think you're right. 

 

KYBOY, that's pitiful.  I suspect the "slit and drift" patent expired a looooong time ago.

[Crazy Ivan]

Rockstar, I share the same thoughts you said. I searched for the video and found what I assume is the one in question. The person who made the video was very clear that they were a novice and made no claim to be a "Master smith". He used 1070 (If I remember correctly) bar for the steel which is a suitable blade steel. He moved very methodically as he worked the blade and may have "Cheated" by using a spring swage for the bevels, but as he admits, he is a newbie and uses them because it it easier. I have seen "katanas" sold from mass production shops in japan that are made using the same methods and steels as he did. Though they may not be the mythical and legendary master smith creations that western culture holds them up to be, they will still cut, slice and hack. Maybe not last as long or hold an edge as well, but who in this day in age would actually use a katana? They are more or less no more then wall decorations. Especially here in the states. So even though he did not go through the motions and years of apprenticeship in japan under a master, he has every right to make a "katana" and be proud of it. I think its counter productive to be talking bad about this one youtube video when there are hordes of them that show/tell horribly wrong info that is liable to get someone hurt. I have seen videos of people "showing how to cast X" and wearing no safety gear, spouting off completely wrong/ misleading "facts". I would focus discontent towards those people instead of someone who did a sword shaped object process video using suitable steel (especially for a newbie/hobbyist) and demonstrating good hammer control and patience while working the steel. My 2 cents. 

[SmoothBore]

Old saying "an expert is anyone more than 25 miles from home with a briefcase".

 

 

For over 30 years I've done troubleshooting on Automation Systems for Machine Tools, and Manufacturing Processes.

 

So yes, ... I've been the "Expert from out-of-town" more times than I can count.

 

And as-often-as-not, ... the Companies that paid me the "big bucks" :rolleyes: to fly in, and resolve problems with their Systems, ... already had someone in their Shop, who was totally capable of handling the problem.

 

 

Fortunately for ME, ... Business Owners, and Managers, quite often just can't believe there's anyone in their Plant, ... or even in their Town, ... who knows more than they do, about it's opperation. :D

 

But they're willing to let me walk in, and turn the place upside down.

 

Go figure .....

 

 

 

And I think this basic Human Trait, ... is what we see at work, with the "self appointed" Experts, out there making videos.

 

( It always cracks me up when a 15 year old "Video Master" says something like, "I've never seen anything like this, or that". )

 

Well sonny, ... seeing-as-how you're barely weaned, ... I suspect they can fill an Encyclopedia with the things YOU'VE "never seen".

 

 

But here's the thing .....

 

If you do your presentation with confidence, and speak in an authorative fashion, ... "You can fool some of the people, ... all of the time".  :D

 

 

 

.

[John McPherson]

"In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is King."

[KYBOY]

yes friend Id say your right..If someone can post an axe picture I can probably find a historical picture of one like it in the book "Firearms,traps and tools of the mountain man" Excellent book and shows many,many axe pictures taken from historical records and findings. What the dude was doing was basically taking a 1" bar of steel, punching a slot(and drifting it) for the handle and flaring out one end for the blade.About the most basic way there is to make an axe and he calls it "his design"...really????? I mean its a great way to make an axe but hardly new or undone. I like sharing knowledge and if nothing else ill do it just make people like that mad.. :P

[Ted T]

My thoughts about  “overnight” Master Blacksmiths   IFI

 

In this post we have enjoyed and hear a lot of views and opinions about this topic.

Some of the views seemed to stand on their own by expressing a great thought or principal, leaving this viewer with the question of “WOW” what more could be said?

“And then “another opinion is expressed that seems to give even more of a foundation to what has already been said.  It seemed to build off of other opinions.

 

That leaves me to say that over many years of viewing questions and opinions that are expressed on this site, that I am always impressed with the input generated by various experienced craftsman. 

I soon realized that most concepts discussed here have many dimensions that must be taken into consideration in order to see the full value of a solution. 

It seems that after given enough exposure to experienced minds the full pitcher soon develops.

 

That being said; it has been my experience that the same principal is involved in creating a fully developed and a very well rounded ”blacksmith” craftsmen.

 

There are many levels of skill-sets that need to be honed and fully understood in forge work.

That takes time and a fully focused effort to obtain a high-level of skills.

Experience is gained from having Experience!   The cycle flows in this manner, it takes one year of focused perfect experience to obtain one year of focused perfect experience; and so on!

 

“TIME” is the currency for exchange.

Otherwise what you invest your time in doing, you will get back “in kind”.

Example: I cannot play the piano.  The reason is because I did not invest my time in

Learning how to play the piano.

But I have a friend that spent 5 hours per day. – Guess what!

 

An example: During the Second World War the Marines would attack and fight their way all a across a small island and then call it a victory.  But; because they did it so fast, they would wind up taking three more days to fight their way back across the island in order to secure it.

And that is because they missed so much from doing it so fast the first time!

 

Great Craftsmanship is a product of the sacrifice of your time, money, and determination that you spent to learn sound and tried forging skills, coupled with as much time as necessary spent at the forge accurately repeating the basics of sound principals until it meets your satisfaction.  

But your “Satisfaction” may be unsatisfactory to someone else.  And there lies room for another discussion.

Example: I have seen people who could play a tune on the piano that sounded good.  But then come to find out that it was the only song they could play. 

They sounded like they were well rounded, but come to find out that they were only short lived and one-dimensional.

 

Time and exposure will sort out the “DREAMERS” from that of true craftsman who have rightly invested themselves in the craft of Forging (One who is called a Blacksmith).

[turbo7]

I'd like to see Ted T's comment put into " About to start Blacksmithing, fully commit, or just a Hobby" as well please.

[GNJC]

I'm an amateur with about six years practice under my belt, and I guess I could make something that looks like a katana... but that's just the point, it would look like a katana - more or less - but it wouldn't be anything near one in any other way.