Riveting Question - beginner smith

[jmccoid]

I'm crafting a standard, flat bottle opener and want to try something a little different.  I plan on punching a hole at the bottom and I want to rivet a different, longer piece of steel to the hole and have it wrap around the handle in a sort of spiral design.  

 

My problem is trying to figure out how I'm going to do the rivet without cutting the steel.  I still haven't completely mastered the forge welding technique and I have a very limited tool set.  This would be much easier if I had access to iron or something similar but I'm working with what I've got.  Before I go out there and wing it, I figured I would  give this forum a shot and see if anyone has any ideas that could help me out.  I'd really appreciate it.

 

Jason

[ThomasPowers]

Are you saying you want to put a tenon on the end of the rod and rivet that tenon in place through a hole drilled in your bottle opener and then wind the rest of the rod around the handle of the bottle opener?  Make a small guillotine swage to do the tenon and perhaps a monkey tool to dress the join; no biggie

[billyO]

Welcome jmccoid.  If you put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the IFI guys live within visiting distance.  (Sorry, Frosty.  I couldn't resist).

 

Hard to picture what you're trying to do, any sketch?  Another take would be to forge a flat tab on the end of the material you plan on wrapping the handle with, punching a hole and then using a pre-made rivet to fasten the 2 pieces. 

[John B]

I'm crafting a standard, flat bottle opener and want to try something a little different.  I plan on punching a hole at the bottom and I want to rivet a different, longer piece of steel to the hole and have it wrap around the handle in a sort of spiral design.  

 

My problem is trying to figure out how I'm going to do the rivet without cutting the steel.  I still haven't completely mastered the forge welding technique and I have a very limited tool set.  This would be much easier if I had access to iron or something similar but I'm working with what I've got.  Before I go out there and wing it, I figured I would  give this forum a shot and see if anyone has any ideas that could help me out.  I'd really appreciate it.

 

Jason

 

Nice idea, but think about it and what is involved, for an exercise you will learn a lot, 

 

For a simpler solution/alternative, I believe there is a book called "Edge of the anvil" by Jack Andrews, that has a description of a technique he calls "Threading the Needle" on a spoon handle, this could be the way to go for you, maybe a slight modification to the wrap and diameter of the drawn down end, but it would eliminate the need to make a rivet end tenon on a bar then rivet into a punched hole, then wrap where you want the finished form to be.

 

Or something like this

 

 , 

 

But draw the end for the wrap down from the parent flat stock size to round to give the desired effect.

 

Whatever you decide, lets have some pics, and have fun.

[jmccoid]

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate the feedback.  I don't have a monkey tool or guillotine swage.  My tool arsenal pretty much consists of my forge, hammer, anvil, a chisel some small punches, and a fire poker I made for my coal bed. I'll check out that threading the needle technique though.  I'm considering maybe trying the forge weld.... not sure.  I really like what was done in the picture you posted John.  

 

I don't have a sketch for it, but that's a good idea.  Usually I just go out to my forge and start crankin' away and see what happens.  Planning out what I'm going to do will probably bring better results.

 

This is the last one I did.  Maybe for this one I'm working on, rather than trying to connect another piece of metal, I'll just draw the handle out and try to bring it back in the spiral pattern you posted John.

 

http://www.iforgeiron.com/gallery/image/38384-usmcbottleopener/

 

A quick newbie question.  Where do you guys usually get your steel/iron?  I can't bring myself to get it shipped so I end up using this garbage steel from home depot, or scrap rebar/railroad spikes if I can get a hold of it.  The home depot 'plain steel' tends to crack and break a little easier.  Any ideas on where to get some cheap mild steel or iron?

[ThomasPowers]

I spent 6 years in McLean VA  back in the '60's.  It has changed a bit since then...

 

You don't have a monkey tool or a fuller!  Tragedy!   Now if you only could borrow a 1/4" drill and a couple of drill bits for an hour you could make both much more simply than running a forge.

 

One urbanized source for scrap metal I used to use is a medium sized ornamental iron place.  For a couple of forged trinkets for the office I could raid their scrap bin for *free*.  Almost all A-36; though a few pieces of real wrought iron would show up.

 

Now what did the local smithing group suggest when you asked *them* that question---almost always better to ask locals that sort of question. (I don't think the location of my favorite scrapyard in New Mexico apx 2000 miles away would help---they don't ship, save to China...)

[jmccoid]

Haha, yeah good call.  I should have socialized with the locals. Yeah, I'm sure. McLean is full of rich folk now and riddled shopping malls and mansions.  I would have liked to have seen it back in the 60's though.  I'm actually moving to New Braunfels, Texas here next month but that might still be a little far.  I'm pissed I won't be able to take my forge with me but I'll be able to figure out some way to start up a make-shift shop.  I'm addicted to this now.

 

 I haven't been able to find much on making a monkey tool other than what I've read in "The Art of Blacksmithing" by Alex Bealer, and there aren't too many details on how to actually build one?  Do you recommend any books or sites that I could check out?

 

Is this the fuller you were referring to? 

 

[EricJergensen]

It sounds like Mark Aspery's "Mastering the Fundamentals" series might be a good next step for you. He does detail the building of a monkey tool in volume one. And, he has a nice detail of the classic "wizard" bottle opener that might give you some ideas as well.

[ThomasPowers]

Actually a swing arm fuller could be made with 3 pieces of stock, 2 holes and 2 bolts/nuts. (more holes give you more flexibility in use)

 

Monkey tool: drill a hole in a piece of stock thicker than your tenon is long; place tenon in hole and hammer other end.

 

People tend to post their "bragging" tools rather than the dead simple/cheap get-'r-done tools

 

A solid fuel forge forge can be simple as a hole in the ground or a junked gas grill lined with dirt.  A blower can be a blow dryer.  Worry about bringing tooling along not the forge.  Now if it's a gas forge---sneak the burner with you, the rest is simple and fairly cheap to build...)

 

I revisited McLean in the 90's and I was scared driving where I used to be comfortable riding my bicycle back when I was in singe digits

3 Little Pigs BBQ was still there though!  (It has since closed; but at least I was able to revisit a taste of my childhood back in the '90's)

 

Got some good smithing folks in TX even in the wet end!  (Last year we had 6" of precipitation---for the entire year; some places in TX will get that in a single storm!)

[John B]

 

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate the feedback.  I don't have a monkey tool or guillotine swage.  My tool arsenal pretty much consists of my forge, hammer, anvil, a chisel some small punches, and a fire poker I made for my coal bed. I'll check out that threading the needle technique though.  I'm considering maybe trying the forge weld.... not sure.  I really like what was done in the picture you posted John.  

 

I don't have a sketch for it, but that's a good idea.  Usually I just go out to my forge and start crankin' away and see what happens.  Planning out what I'm going to do will probably bring better results.

 

This is the last one I did.  Maybe for this one I'm working on, rather than trying to connect another piece of metal, I'll just draw the handle out and try to bring it back in the spiral pattern you posted John.

 

That looks to be a fair attempt, you don't need many tools at all, you can isolate a length on the end of a bar by half blows on the edge of the anvil, then draw it down

 

If you had some tongs you could use their handles as fullers in a pinch,  use your imagination to get the results you need with what you have at hand, if not, consider making the tools you need. (but if you are moving, wait 'til you are settled, less to drag about and relocate.

 

Good luck with it all.

[jmccoid]

It sounds like Mark Aspery's "Mastering the Fundamentals" series might be a good next step for you. He does detail the building of a monkey tool in volume one. And, he has a nice detail of the classic "wizard" bottle opener that might give you some ideas as well.

 

Awesome, thanks Eric.  $63 is a little steep for me right now but once I get settled in TX with some money rolling in, I'll be sure to check that book out.

[DSW]

Books, plural. He has 3 in the set and each one isn't cheap, but well worth it in my opinion.

 

You can fuller stock on the by striking the material when it's held at the corner of the anvil. As mentioned a swing arm fuller can be made pretty easily. I welded part of mine, but with a bit of creative thinking I and sure I could make the same thing using nuts and bolts for the whole thing.

 

A welder makes the monkey tool a breeze. Now's the time to start looking to see who you know has a welder and is willing to work for beer. Not the greatest pict, but it shows the monkey tool I just made to do some square tenons. It's a piece of 1  square tube with a piece of 1" x 1/2" thick welded the working end, and a piece of 1" solid stuffed down the hammer end and welded in place. To get the square hole, I punched and drifted the hole while the bar was still long and then cut it to fit the tube. I then filed as needed to make sure it fit the tenons I was doing.

 

 

[jmccoid]

On July 31, 2014 at 4:48 PM, ThomasPowers said:

Actually a swing arm fuller could be made with 3 pieces of stock, 2 holes and 2 bolts/nuts. (more holes give you more flexibility in use)

 

Monkey tool: drill a hole in a piece of stock thicker than your tenon is long; place tenon in hole and hammer other end.

 

People tend to post their "bragging" tools rather than the dead simple/cheap get-'r-done tools

 

A solid fuel forge forge can be simple as a hole in the ground or a junked gas grill lined with dirt.  A blower can be a blow dryer.  Worry about bringing tooling along not the forge.  Now if it's a gas forge---sneak the burner with you, the rest is simple and fairly cheap to build...)

 

I revisited McLean in the 90's and I was scared driving where I used to be comfortable riding my bicycle back when I was in singe digits

3 Little Pigs BBQ was still there though!  (It has since closed; but at least I was able to revisit a taste of my childhood back in the '90's)

 

Got some good smithing folks in TX even in the wet end!  (Last year we had 6" of precipitation---for the entire year; some places in TX will get that in a single storm!)

 

The fuller and monkey tool sound pretty easy to make but I'm having a hard time picturing them in my head.  I'll have to do check out some images I think to get those going.

 

 Haha, I'm all about obtaining some get-'r-done tools.  I like to keep it simple. chisel, punch, vice grips and pliers have been doin' me justice this summer.  A pair of tongs would be outstanding though.

 

Yeah those are some good points.  I'll be SURE to pack up my anvil and blower to take with me.  I'm using a coal forge my brother and I built.  She's not the prettiest thing in the world and I'm no stone mason, but she gets the job done.

http://www.iforgeiron.com/gallery/image/38391-imag0243/

 

Yeah there aren't too many spots you can ride your bike around here anymore.  Washington D.C. is taking over!

 

That's good to hear, I've heard a lot of good things about Texas.  I'm a musician so I'll be looking forward to visiting Austin as well. 6' in a year???  xxxx, yeah we've gotten more than that in one day, in snow this winter, haha.  

[jmccoid]

 

Books, plural. He has 3 in the set and each one isn't cheap, but well worth it in my opinion.

 

You can fuller stock on the by striking the material when it's held at the corner of the anvil. As mentioned a swing arm fuller can be made pretty easily. I welded part of mine, but with a bit of creative thinking I and sure I could make the same thing using nuts and bolts for the whole thing.

 

A welder makes the monkey tool a breeze. Now's the time to start looking to see who you know has a welder and is willing to work for beer. Not the greatest pict, but it shows the monkey tool I just made to do some square tenons. It's a piece of 1  square tube with a piece of 1" x 1/2" thick welded the working end, and a piece of 1" solid stuffed down the hammer end and welded in place. To get the square hole, I punched and drifted the hole while the bar was still long and then cut it to fit the tube. I then filed as needed to make sure it fit the tenons I was doing.

 

 

 DSCN4148.JPG

 

Right on.  Yeah something like that would be good.  There's only so much you can learn from watching youtube videos.

 

Awesome, thanks DSW.  Once I get situated again with a forge setup, I'll start makin' some of these proper tools.

[DSW]

The fuller and monkey tool sound pretty easy to make but I'm having a hard time picturing them in my head.  I'll have to do check out some images I think to get those going.

 

 

 

Here's the only one I have of my old swing arm fuller.  it's up at the top of the picture. Done fast and dirty to get a job done. New one I took more time on.

 

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Jason, glad to have you. Hey Billy, think up your own lines will ya? <grin>

 

I have a couple simple spring fullers I made a while ago and you don't really need anything but a fire and a hammer. Picture a big hairpin made from round stock, 1/2"-5/8" works well, much larger and it takes  more forging to fit the hardy hole. Anyway, the working part is the hairpin shape but opened up some, the bottom lays on the anvil's face and the struck end is spaced enough to get your work in.

 

Now for the "tricky" part. Again visualizing a hairpin maybe 10" long give or take. Form the spring end over a round die, say a pipe 1 1/2" - 2" dia. The wider the spring end the more lively it'll be and the more parallel the fuller dies will be when open. Okay, that is NOT the tricky part, I hope you didn't think it was. <grin> The "tricky" part is making shank that fits the hardy hole. Picture another hairpin bend but in the bottom die, bent and forged tight so it slides into the hardy hole. If you have a BIG hardy hole leaving the shank open a little will make for a tight fit and if the round stock won't fit in the hardy hole because it's too big when folded. . . Fire and hammer time, yes?

 

Something that's nice about this kind of spring fuller is you can bend it so it rests at the edge of the anvil over the waist allowing you to work on the anvil's edge which can be really handy. I have a guillotine tool and a number of dies but grab my hairpin looking spring fuller pretty darned often.

 

Be forewarned however, there is one fundamental flaw in this design. You have to keep an eagle eye out, folk seem to think it's just another piece of salvaged (scrounged) stock and it may end up turned into something else. <grin>

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[jmccoid]

Awesome!  Thanks a lot to everyone.  I'm psyched to start making some of these tools and I really appreciate the explanations as well.  I think I have a good idea on how to make a fuller and after browsing through some images, it doesn't looks so tough.

 

Been away from the forge for a few days and will be gettin' back to it here this week.  I'll be sure to post some pics on the bottle opener's progress.

 

Thanks again,

Jason

[jmccoid]

This is what I ended up with at the end of the day.  I think the birthday girl seemed to be happy with it.

 

 

 

I did however have a hard time keeping the wrapped around steel evenly separated because every time I made an adjustment, something else would move. 

[Frosty]

This is what I ended up with at the end of the day.  I think the birthday girl seemed to be happy with it.

 

IMAG0368.jpg

 

IMAG0370.jpg

 

I did however have a hard time keeping the wrapped around steel evenly separated because every time I made an adjustment, something else would move. 

 

Ayyup, it'll do that but dealing will come to you the more you do. Pretty darned nice looking opener. Is the wrapped section long enough to be comfortable in the hand?

 

A little trick for helping keep the wrap evenly spaced is to make a gauge. For instance say you want 1/8" between wraps, forge a little round/square, etc. stock down to the desired thickness/width and put a little bend in it. The gauge is used when you wrap by laying it next to the section already laid down and you wrap the next one against it. A watering can is then used to cool the wrap laid so it can't move.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[jmccoid]

Thanks Frosty! Yeah, I was a little worried it wouldn't feel comfortable but it actually turned out to have a really nice feel.  It has a good weight balance and the wrapped part fits pretty nicely in the palm of your hand.  It could also have a double function of a bludgeoning weapon too, haha.  This opener's got some weight to it, but that's what my friends and family are asking for =)

 

That's a good call.  A gauge and maybe a vice would make the job a lot easier. I was holding the opener with some vice grips in one hand and making the bends with a pair pliers in the other.  VERY frustrating, haha.

 

Jason

[Frosty]

Yeah, the heft feels good in the hand,  maybe it's the ancient part of our brains harkening back to using rocks to open our beers. A twist feels good in the hand too especially if the spacing lets the fingers rest on the shaft. It's a very secure grip and feels good.

 

Tricks like making a spacer will come to you as time goes by, we all think of things like that to make it easier. A vise IS a good thing in the shop as are good tongs and pliers. You can make V bit combination tongs that will grip the sq. stock solidly across the jaws giving you more leverage to twist. A short pair of tongs with a round bit so you can hold the tapered stock and let the stock slip through as you wrap it will make it much easier and faster.

 

The vise grips and regular pliers are okay if that's what you have but proper tongs made for the job are what you really need. Tong are also excellent learning projects and there are a number of outstanding instructional videos and blueprint posts. Yeah, that's right, right HERE in IFI city. (DRATS, I couldn't think of a rhyme for river city like the song>)

 

Frosty The Lucky.