Is a Treadle or Oliver better than my 12 year old Nephew?

[eseemann]

Good Morning Folks,
 
I would like to say to start with that I have been told that a foot powered hammer is not as good as a power hammer and that I can agree with. Right the only striker I have at hand is my 12 year old Nephew. With that in mind if I do not have the money or the space for a "real" power hammer would either of these hammers be an improvement over my right arm? I am 6' 8" tall and 310 lbs and I think there is some mechanical advantage to be had that I am missing out on right now.

[knots]

I think you need to keep them both around.  I have a nice little treadle hammer that  hits with a good wollop when the need arrises but It is not particularly good company.   Also plan ahead for the time he is 6-2 and weighs 200 plus pounds and, in addition to the striking,  you need to lift that new 350 pound south german anvil on to a stump.   

[ThomasPowers]

A treadle hammer is a handy thing to have around the shop however it's not a replacement for a powerhammer just like a bicycle is not a replacement for a car.  Yes it can do some of the tasks; but try tossing a 100kg anvil on your bike and 100 kg of coke and travel for a couple of hundred km!

 

They do make powerhammers with very small footprints---some of the tire hammers for example have a foot print *smaller* than that oliver and can be self built for not much more effort than that oliver which makes your original post read more like:  "I don't have the money or the space for a powerhammer so I want to use more space and a bit less money to build an oliver"

 

Now there is no problem with building a treadle hammer of some sort, very handy when your nephew goes through the surly teenage years or starts demanding beer for striking a bit later, (hopefully a good bit later!)  But it's not a replacement for a powerhammer.  So review what you want to be making and decide which you need *first*.

[Frosty]

If I were to just answer the subject line question I'd have to ask if your treadle or power hammer will wash dishes, clean the barn, do yard work or be a good companion on a road trip.

 

A youngster as a striker has advantages no brainless tool ever will. On the other side of the equation, it (a power tool of any description) will always be there ready at the flip of a switch, won't need instructions and wont need lunch, bathroom breaks or sass back. On the up side (yeah, I'm back to that side of the argument again) telling jokes can be good as is dialing 911.

 

I'd say BOTH if you can manage it is by far the better deal.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[eseemann]

The main reason for the subject line is I have asked the members at the local Athens Forge meeting and the local smith does some very nice fine work on his treadle hammer. He has two power hammers to do the type of work one does with a power hammer. I have a 12 year old that I can draw on from time to time but he will never be very tall but he has his Granddaddy's build and will have a low center of gravity and be built like a fireplug, that will help in lifting an anvil.

I have access to steel that I think should work for the hammer in the post but I do not have a good motor for a tire hammer. When I think of the cost of building a tire hammer (or belt grinder) the motor seems to be one of the highest cost single items.

Is a bench top tire hammer practical? If it can hit about as hard as I can without getting tired I can live with it needing to make more strikes.

 

Thanks for the input all.    

[billyO]

The question I'd ask would be, what is the intended use of the hammer/striker?

 

If you're looking to draw out stock greater than, say, 1" square, then I'd say you and your nephew will do it quicker and easier than you ever could with a treadle/oliver. I've tried using a treadle hammer to draw out stock before and found that I got as tired if not moreso than doing it by hand on the corner of the anvil.  Rapid up/down of one leg is awkward, and will force you to actually use more muscles to stabilize your trunk and body and you'll get tired quicker.  Don't forget, when smithing, you're always against the clock, the faster you hit the better.  Try to stamp one leg at the same tempo you use your hammer, I bet you get tired pretty quick. .

 

If, on the other hand, you're using top tooling to add details to forged pieces, you'll have much more control with the treadle hammer than your nephew.  To me, when using tooling (punches, chisels, fullers, etc.) is when the treadle hammer shines.   

 

It seems like you're ready to build the hammer, so build it.  Just know it's limitations and use it for what it's best.  To get the most satisfaction out of any job, make sure the tool you're using is the right one for said job. 

[eseemann]

Billy, 

Thanks for the insight, I had not thought of ti as the effort required to move the leg and stay on the other foot. I took a look at "RUSTY" the Appalachian Power Hammer and that may be small enough to fit on my porch (no workshop yet) and do the job. According to the people that sell the "Rusty" plans you can get away with a smaller motor (1HP or less) than a lager hammer since you are moving a lighter hammer. 

I am going to keep the nephew, Frosty has a good point about the other uses for him. 

 

thanks

[Stormcrow]

Eseemann - The Rusty design was what I went with, with the addition of a tire clutch.  In complexity, it's not too much different from a treadle hammer, and the smaller versions such as the original (15 lb. head, I believe) will have a similarly-sized footprint.  The design can be scaled up to about 100 lbs with commonly-available salvaged steel and/or off-the-shelf parts, though you'll need a bigger motor at the upper end, of course.  Mine is about 100 lbs and runs a 3 hp, 3 phase motor.

 

It doesn't replace a treadle hammer and a treadle hammer doesn't replace it.  For what I do, I'll take the power hammer, though.

 

A Depew-style helve hammer might be another option.  Grant Sarver's Original Junkyard Hammer did pretty well with that general design for small forging.  If you watch all of his YouTube videos, you see how much the JYH was a toy in his shop, but a useful one to help out folks who didn't have the equipment and shop space he did.  Most folks aren't forging the size of stock Grant was, either.

[notownkid]

How much for the 12 yr old.  He'll be more useful if you train him and encourage him now, don't wait. 

[eseemann]

Stormcow,

 

Do you have a pic of your Rusty+tire clutch posted already?

 

Notownkid,

 

I think I am going to get a good bit of use out of him and I think he will enjoy it,

[Stormcrow]

 

Here's a long video with the hammer that I've posted before.  The tire clutch is at about 4:21.  Got the general idea from Ptree, who was very helpful with the whole process.

[eseemann]

Thanks, I will take a look at it tonight