PaulKrzysz Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share Posted March 29, 2014 I'm filming the process and am going to make a video at the end. I will post it on this site when im finished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtforge Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 I would lean towards a plate instead of hard facing. The reason is that when you are done, you have a flat surface. If you don't have access to a mill,Blanchard grinder, or similar machine, grinding the top flat will take a lot of time,abrasives, and some amount of skill. Mine didn't take a lot of time, special machines or skill. Angle grind down the high spots and use a hand held belt sander to keep it flat. Change grits to finer as you go. I've also filled in low spots on anvils using the same technique. The Hardalloy 118 blends in so it's hard to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Mtforge, that still sounds like a lot more time than I would want to spend on it ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 It should also be kept in mind that anvils are not surface plates. Some degree of slight radius and/or dish on the face does no harm. We are forging - not machining (and I realize that machine forging can be done to relatvely close tolerances but hand forging typically does not yield not +/-.005). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtforge Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Mtforge, that still sounds like a lot more time than I would want to spend on it ;) And have you done a time study on both methods? I haven't but always thought the plate method would take longer and wouldn't work as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I figure welding on a plate would be the same amount, or slightly less welding, and no grinding afterwards. Others on here have done this repair, so they should have the info on time. I realize an anvil is not a surface plate, but some folks have a hard time getting a large area flat with hand tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Well I have a friend who when young had an anvil milled down to flat, sharp edged and useless (too thin plate/too soft). As I recall a professional weldor using professional tools spent a bit over 5 hours putting a face back on it by welding on it---no plate added. A lot of that time time was spent grinding and cleaning between passes. (This does not count the preheat/post cool) Luckily for him it was at an ABANA affiliate anvil repair workshop or that anvil would have ended up costing more than a "new" one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I would use the Robb Gunther repair method, I have done it with good results. The only problem that we had was edges were not hard enough. The hardfacing rods will work harden. I would probably go with a 11018 rod on the edges next time. Also I would peen the welds as I was going with a needle scaler There was a post on this site a few years back when fewood and myself did his Peter Wright anvil, it seems to be missing now. The welding took about 5 hrs and the grinding probably another 3-4 hrs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 One issue to be overcome with a prehardened plate (such as a forklift tine) is how to cut the pritchel and hardy holes. I think a hard plate can be homogenously welded in such a fashion that the heat won't pull the temper but the holes then become a problem for most common methods. A hole popper and wire EDM will make short work of it but how many people have access to those tools? That is the primary reason I ran my pieces of spring steel through a normalizing process - so those two holes can be drilled and finished with typical shop tools. I suppose a big plasma could do the job without generating a large HAZ but it bears consideration in the equation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 I did a hardy, and pritchel through a fork tine for Tim McCoy. I drilled the hole, and then milled it square at work. It was tough, but not too hard to cut. I would cut the holes first, then align and weld as a piece of plate is easier to handle than an anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 I did a hardy, and pritchel through a fork tine for Tim McCoy. I drilled the hole, and then milled it square at work. It was tough, but not too hard to cut. I would cut the holes first, then align and weld as a piece of plate is easier to handle than an anvil. It certainly can be done as you have noted - but how hard would it have been to file by hand if you didn't have access to the mill and high quality cutters? The first plate I ever did had a series of holes drilled inside the hardy then I broke out the remaining center piece and filed the high spots until the hole was square. Wore out a brand new 12" Nicholson on that one... <LOL> In hindsight, I think a good, high capacity plasma in the right hands would do a perfectly acceptable job and the HAZ probably means nothing in daily use - unless by chance it chilled too fast and makes the hardy hole brittle. Blacksmiths are often more likely to have flame cutters than machining equipment (although if I ever do another one, I'll use my Hendey crank shaper on the hole and save my elbows). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 A shaper would be a good choice. I have a 16" G&E shaper. With the abundance of machining equipment today it shouldn't be hard finding a shop, or person with a mill, laser/plasma/waterjet, shaper, broach, etc to get it done at a reasonable cost. It is also a good way to meet new friends. One could also forgo the hardy hole altogether and just put the hardy into a post vise, or make a post to put them in. Lots of options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweany Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 cleaning out the weld will be easier with a needle scaler from harbor freight. works a treat on slag. :D Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulKrzysz Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 I thought I would keep you guys updated on this build. This project was something I did in shop class. It took the whole working semester and I did not even finish it there. On the last day a school i got to weld on the top plate to the rest of the body. I ended up buying a piece of 4140 to weld to the face. The 4140 was a 1/2'' thick. All of this is in the video but I was pressed for time near the end of the year and did not end up filming the welding so i will explain it now. As mentioned above posts, I placed a 3/8'' spacer on the bottom on the anvil and the top plate on top of that. I welded in the 3/8'' gap using 1/8'' 7018 electrodes. In between passed I was cleaning the slag, partially with a chisel, and also with a thin cutting disk because it could really get into the tough spots. once i was about 75% finished welding the top plate, i was quickly running out of time (Last day of school, period about to end) I had to weld the remainder of the gap (about 50% of one side) with the MIG welder because cleaning the slag was taking too long and I would not be able to finish. I am not sure what wire they were running but I sure hope it was a good one. I am also making a steel stand for the anvil, i have everything cut up, I'm just waiting on a welder, The last step is to heat treat the thing. I will be making a large wood fire, and collecting plenty of water. I am using wood because I have lots I need to burn and I wont have to use my good forging coke, if the wood will not work I will just throw coke on top of the fire near the end. Should be fun! (I will make a video of the heat treating). If anyone has tips for the heat treating I will be glad to hear them. Any questions and suggestions are welcome. Video of me making the thing can be seen here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Certainly looks nice at this point, good job so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I don't believe your heat treat will work on either part: needs more heat and needs more to quench than just the amount of water. It needs water under pressure to break through the steam jacket that forms. Charles McRaven used a local Volunteer Fire Department's high pressure firehose to quench the one he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 making up for earlier posting problems IFI now supports double posting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulKrzysz Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 I don't believe your heat treat will work on either part: needs more heat and needs more to quench than just the amount of water. It needs water under pressure to break through the steam jacket that forms. Charles McRaven used a local Volunteer Fire Department's high pressure firehose to quench the one he did. I will be using forced air with the wood + coke fire to get the thing up to temp. This is not the first piece of steel i will be heating. Also, I going off of HWooldridge's experience with the hardening. I will have several wheelbarrows and garbage bins filled with water (and friends) ready to help me pour the water onto the anvil. As much as I would love to ask the fire department I'm sure they would not oblige. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 As I recall one anvil manufacturer used to pour their water from 30' up Mousehole forge ran their sluice on their anvils 8-16 minutes depending on size How many wheelbarrows for a continuous pour for 8 minutes at 1 wheelbarrow every 10 seconds? And how are you going to get the height to punch through the steam jacket? Though 4140 does have a longer get below the nose time than old straight carbon steels... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 if you add some dish soap to the water it may help break down surface tension and reduce the steam jacket effect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Any chance you can find a waterfall someplace? That would be effective if possible. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan C Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Would something like this work, or did he just get lucky in not cracking the face? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 And exactly HOW does that get through the steam jacket? With a modern alloy that might work but for traditional straight carbon ones no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan C Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I've never considered HT'ing an anvil or something that large. What is the steam jacket? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 when water hits a hot piece of metal it turns to steam, keeping more water from it and slowing the cooling, you want it to cool very fast in most cases so you can use a surfactant like dish soap to break the surface tension and reducing bubbles forming or use high pressure or fast flowing water to cool it quicker. the layer of steam is insulating and keeping apart the hot metal and cold water Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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