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Refacing a Anvil with Leaf Spring


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For those of you guys who have repaired old anvil by re-welding a new piece of steel to the top, what procedures did you use?

I know that a full penetration weld is needed, so one must add a small piece of square bar under the plate.

 

My questions are the following

 

What welding rod did you use?

 

How difficult was it to remove the slag from the weld area?

 

Did you preheat? 

 

Did you harden the anvil when you where finished? 

 

How has your repair held?

 

If you had to do it again what would you change?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

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The problem with welding a leaf spring is the welds are on the outside.  The middle of the anvil will be dead.  Yes, I speak from experience.  I will never use that technique again.  Better to get some resurfacing rods and go that route. 

It took me 2 years to get over the elbow problem that developed from using that anvil.

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For those of you guys who have repaired old anvil by re-welding a new piece of steel to the top, what procedures did you use?
I know that a full penetration weld is needed, so one must add a small piece of square bar under the plate.

My questions are the following

What welding rod did you use? (6011)

How difficult was it to remove the slag from the weld area? (I didn't remove the slag; just welded over the previous pass)

Did you preheat? (No)

Did you harden the anvil when you where finished? (Yes)

How has your repair held? (Over 30 years of hard regular use without chipping or cracking)

If you had to do it again what would you change? (It's a lot of work. Probably would just spend my time trying to find one. There really is a huge amount of info on this site about repair. Would take days to read all of it.)

Thanks

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I don't think you guys understood the original post

 

If I were to do this, I would buy new 5160, and put a 3/8'' spacer between the top plate and the anvil, then weld that 3/8'' section. I would not simply weld the flat-bar onto the sides.

 

The rest of the questions still stand.

 

The most important questions I have are the concerning pre-heat, and the best rod to use. Imagine mild steel and 5160 are being welded, mild steel being hot rolled mild, and 5160 being annealed flat-bar 1/2'' thick (or thicker if necessary) 

 

I have searched the forum and have not found the answer to my question of preheat and rod selection

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I understand the question, I've done it.  When you weld around the outside, it will have decent rebound (50 % if he's lucky).  The part inside that isn't welded will act just like any anvil with a faceplate that has come loose.  It will be dead.  A dead anvil means you have to work harder to move the metal.  That is why I developed elbow problems from using that aso.  The anvil was cast iron and soft, at the beginning I figured it would work.  An old piece of RR track worked 100 times better. 

From my experience I would recommend not welding a face, it's a waste of time.

Since then I cut the springs (tractor trailer springs 3/4" thick) and surfaced it.  I never finished that project, not really worth my time, but one day I might get bored and finish it.  :rolleyes:

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I will answer your questions but how are you planning to harden 5160 solidly welded to a huge chunk of iron? I guess if you were near a pond you could use an 8 hp trash pump with a 3" hose to quench it, but you will still have the traditional problems of too hard edges, too soft face (compared to a perfect ideal). That being the case, If I were to do it I would use an air hardening alloy. All the info you need to weld air hardening tool steel is here;

http://www.weldreality.com/toolsteelsS.htm

 

If you really want to do this with rods instead of wirefeed, you have a lot of time on your hands which you need to waste. A wire feeder should be at least 250 amps and I would use inner/outersheild, if possible.  IMHO CO2 would suffice, but some know better than I. I will mention though that the 3/8" square bar should be on the diamond and welded together to form an elongated H. Aslo I would use thick copper or bronze dams, and do all the welding in the flat position Other than tacking. This means repeatedly laying the anvil on it's side, it's other side, it's back, etc. and while it is 400 degreesF. (and much hotter in some spots.) 

 

Because of the mass of the anvil you will not need to post heat if you do the entire job at once. If you do use air hardening steel, you will want to slow the cooling by burying in ashes after welding to prevent overhardening the top plate. 

 

I personally would not take the time to do this if I had to use welding rods instead of wirefeed. Literally ten times as fast. 

 

If you choose to use 5160 you could use 7018 or 70,000 MIG wire, preheat to 300-400 degrees, don't worry about post heat or slow cooling, again due to anvil mass and it would be cheaper but a huge job to harden.

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Yes, we understood the question.

 

Yes, preheat, and post heat.  Removing slag from a very deep weld area is a lot of work with a lot of possibility for errors.  Read up on best welding rod for your top plate/base material/welding machine/sikll level.  For best results you should indeed heat treat, a big deal when dealing with a hundred pounds or so of steel.

 

Others have done it.  Posted here about it.  It's doable but a PITA.  Add up your costs- buy a junk anvil, new spring steel, welding rod, electricity, wear on tools, disposables like grinding discs, fuel for pre and post heat even if you don't do a full heat treat and for best results you should (more cost) and time, time, time.  In my opinion time is the most expensive.   

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The reason I was asking about doing it with rods was because I think it would be awfully difficult to fit a mig tip between the two surfaces to get a good weld. The anvil will be 3'' wide.

The depth is less than half that, and you can use innershield only for the first 1/2 an inch if you need to. 

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I don't think you guys understood the original post

If I were to do this, I would buy new 5160, and put a 3/8'' spacer between the top plate and the anvil, then weld that 3/8'' section. I would not simply weld the flat-bar onto the sides.

The rest of the questions still stand.

The most important questions I have are the concerning pre-heat, and the best rod to use. Imagine mild steel and 5160 are being welded, mild steel being hot rolled mild, and 5160 being annealed flat-bar 1/2'' thick (or thicker if necessary)

I have searched the forum and have not found the answer to my question of preheat and rod selection

I did answer your questions - they were imbedded parenthetically in the original post. I used 3/8 spacers and welded from inside to the outer edge with 6011 rod. The hardy and pritchel were cut before welding.

I've actually done this type of repair on several anvils but as I said, it is a lot of work. The heat treat is tricky - just make sure you have plenty of water and don't dunk it for the quench. I've written several posts on the subject and won't retype all of it here. It can be done without much trouble but you have to think through the entire process ahead of time.

PS - the anvil I'm standing behind in my avatar pic was replated. It's a 250 lb Peter Wright and the first one I did over 30 years ago. Other anvils were done for other smiths.
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There was a guy that did this and posted a thread about it.

 

He put a piece of 1/4" round stock down the center of the anvil and used short pieces to circle the hardy and pritchel holes.  Iirc, the top plate was from a fork lift tine and was fully hardened/tempered when attached.  No need for further heat treat after the welding was complete.

 

Again going by memory, he used a thin 6013 rod.  

 

Anyhow, he seemed rather positive about the experience and the results.

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I have a similar question to PaulKrzysz. I have plans on making a stake anvil and I was thinking on using a bit of 5160 (30 mm thick) for the top flat bit. Basically I was thinking on making full penatration welding, just like PaulKrzysz, but I have the avantage of welding the flat bit of steel on horizontal round stock (to make both round and square horns and the round stock will be welded on the shaft). So my question is, if I am careful enough to keep the top plate cool enough, at oxidation colour peacock, can I avoid heat treating the anvil's face after I finish it?

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Again, you would be going through a lot of trouble for very little benefit.  If you are able to bevel it and weld from the center out the heat build up will destroy the temper in the spring,  If you keep it cool the weld will most likely fail.  For all that effort you would be better off in purchasing some 309L or Nicromang and surfacing the anvil.  It would be a lot less work and will make a better work surface.

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You will get poor penetration with a joint of that design, regardless of electrode selection. Also the top plate would pull down into the anvil side as you weld making the gap smaller as you weld. You would need to bevel the anvil side at a 45 degree angle from the center out on both sides. Look at the joint called double bevel, this is the only way you will get full penetration.

 

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I've never welded on a plate but did weld on a new face. I had bought a 170 pound mousehole early in my learning and suspect someone had ground the entire top plate off. It was flat and soft. I debated for a long time welding a plate on but ended up welding it up with Hardalloy 118. It's my favorite anvil now.

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A lot depends on how thick the new top plate is.  I have some 1/4" thick leaf spring that wouldn't take the heat at all before losing its temper, but an inch-thick forklift tine is a bit different.

 

The plate will want to bend down, but that can be minimized by switching sides regularly and only laying short beads.

 

I would think that hard-facing the existing top would be a whole bunch easier, but I've never done either.

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I did answer your questions - they were imbedded parenthetically in the original post. I used 3/8 spacers and welded from inside to the outer edge with 6011 rod. The hardy and pritchel were cut before welding.

I've actually done this type of repair on several anvils but as I said, it is a lot of work. The heat treat is tricky - just make sure you have plenty of water and don't dunk it for the quench. I've written several posts on the subject and won't retype all of it here. It can be done without much trouble but you have to think through the entire process ahead of time.

PS - the anvil I'm standing behind in my avatar pic was replated. It's a 250 lb Peter Wright and the first one I did over 30 years ago. Other anvils were done for other smiths.

Thank you sir, I remember reading something you wrote on the subject. I manged to find your procedure on the forum.

 

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The only question I have is why did you not clean the slag between passes?

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Thank you sir, I remember reading something you wrote on the subject. I manged to find your procedure on the forum.

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The only question I have is why did you not clean the slag between passes?

6011 can be welded over and the flux will float out to some degree with each pass. I assumed I'd have trouble getting down to the root so I picked a rod that left the least amount of slag. IIRC, I was eventually able to chip as I got nearer to the edge but the first several passes were not cleaned. You don't have to worry about an X-ray quality weld in the center of the face; just aim for a reasonably homogenous bond.
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I'll second just using hardface and omit the plate. Then there's no need for heat treat. If you decide to go the plate route, I think it would work ok but instead of using a bar for a spacer in the middle, I'd lay a few beads directly down the middle of the face prior to welding the plate. Let us know how it works out

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I would lean towards a plate instead of hard facing. The reason is that when you are done, you have a flat surface. If you don't have access to a mill,Blanchard grinder, or similar machine, grinding the top flat will take a lot of time,abrasives, and some amount of skill.

I looked at a Hay Budden farrier anvil that had a forklift tine welded to the top decades ago by the guy's grandfather. He only welded around the edge with what appeared to be a 6011 type rod by the looks of the beads, and it was holding fine. With the tine being around 1.5" thick , flex was probably minimal with a hand hammer.

Weld a thick prehardened plate on top that the welds won't suck the hardness out of. A forklift tine would probably work fine. I like the idea of a full under weld, and the extra mass won't be a detriment.

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