Fluxless welding

[Justin Carnecchia]

Hi, as many of you are probably aware many of todays top smiths stopped using borax in favor of kerosene in the past few years. It has now been taken one step further and people have started welding without any flux. This may well be the biggest advance since gas forges. Not only is forge eating borax not needed, people who are doing it say that the fluxless method works better. JD Smith says he is getting 100% success. I have not tried it, as my forge is in need of relining (again),   XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX . I can't wait to give this a go, and am curious to hear back if anyone here has tried it yet.

 

Mod note: removed commercial link with no real content 

 

Admin addition: To be clear, Non ABS members can not access the material from that link, until after PAYING for a membership.

[Rashelle]

I haven't done blades or any form of pattern welding. But I have done forge welding without flux, as well as with borax, sand, anhydrous borax and iron, borax with boric acid, iron added, mixes etc. It's all in the technique. Get a good surface contact and the proper heat matched up amongst your pieces and you can get them to weld. Note some pieces of mild steel seem harder to weld then others (probable alloys mixed in recycled steel batches it seems.) It does work.

 

There was a link on this site a few months ago showing a UK smith named Simon (can't remember last name) who showed forge welding without flux also. It was a good video for people to learn from. I have a new computer so can't find the link off hand, it's saved on a different computer.

 

Long story short forge welding to me seems it's more about taking the proper steps then it is about flux. Myself and another Fort Vancouver blacksmith have been trying various flux mixtures for months. I like Iron mountain, I like plain Borax, I don't mind not using flux at all. It's all good. Just do what you would do with flux but without it. and remember that you may get more scaling in the surrounding areas, so take that into account when going about matching your surfaces. I think it is a good skill to develop if you have the desire to forge weld, then can use flux if you want without having to rely on it. I think in the end you become better by doing it without. But whatever works for yo works for you it's all good.

 

Rashelle

[Rashelle]

I think this may be the link:

 

Simon Grant Jones is the person showing it.

[Justin Carnecchia]

. I would read it, the whole point is that is works better than flux welding. The biggest problem with the flux, aside from eating kaowool, is that it has a tendency to leave inclusions. Even if your technique is near perfect sometimes you will get them.

According to JD Smith, (if you like knives and don't know who he is look him up, it is worth it)  he is getting 100% successful flawless welds. What's more he reports that because it is being done in a reducing forge, there is little to no loss from forge scale.

 Basically what is being reported is that flux welding was developed for coal forges. When smiths started using gas forges they just kept using flux because that is what they were used to. This method apparently (I have not had chance to try it, but I know people who have) is better suited to gas forges. It does require a forge that you can control the atmosphere, and will reach 2300f. Whether it will work in a coal forge has not been established, but if you can maintain a reducing fire it should.

  Just to note, aside from the 1084 and 15n20 that most of us are using for Damascus and weld easily, this technique has also been used with mild and carbon, and with 1095,L6,5160 billets.

  I would think that the biggest benefit would be for pattern welding, as inclusions can be quite costly in time and material. Also with many patterns being drawn out on edge perfect welds are a must.  For general blacksmithing I don't know if this would be as big a deal.

 

Off site link removed.again

[Rashelle]

You can weld without flux in coal forges as that is the type of forge I have mainly used and is the only type I've used for forge welding. Though there is the issue of either upsetting the area near the weld or using slightly larger then desired result piece to compensate for loss of material due to scale. Though it's not always an issue even without upsetting the nearby areas. It comes down to technique mostly it seems. (I'm speaking for myself as others results may of course always be different and I'm the only one I can speak for anyways.)

 

I agree with you that forge welding without flux is valid. But like you mentioned it might be best when doing damascus that way to use a propane forge. I don't know I have only a little experience with propane. I also have no experience with damascus. The closest thing for me is welding in high carbon bits for axes.

[Karn3]

While not an expert by any means, I've welded quite a few damascus billets without any form of flux and I've had no problems at all. Admittedly, it's due to me being a lazy cheapskate rather than making a concious choice to go without flux, but the results have always been great so I've never been spurred into buying it to help with my welding. I use a coke forge at the moment but am working on building a gas forge. When that's complete I'll see if the same holds true for the gas forge.

[Steve Sells]

I see a real problem with the Simon Grant Video that Rashelle just posted.  In allowing the metal to spark, then even making it burn more by adding 5 more seconds of that.   It will ruin many tool steels. I dont sell burned blades, tho it may work fine for the mild steels. this is the blade section.  Who wants to use mild non hardenable steel for a blade?  this seems out of context for pattern welding tool steel,  attempting to prove its better to weld tools steels with out any flux. 

 

I have forge welded tool steels with out flux, its not a beginners method, and I strongly advise people begin learining with a flux of some sort, but I feel I need to point out the video is not being done with any usable blade steels with those sparks flying.  Good to see new ideas, and old ideas I aint heard yet, but would like some proof of it working. Til then I will use my borax, I get 100% good welds, and I dont get inclusions.

[basher]

I am keen to see more of this done.

  that is...low temp steel on steel welding without flux in an open forge environ as opposed to the high temp sparking welding that would be a standard flux less forge weld in the UK (as in the video above).

 I am not a big fan of borax, both the fumes and the way it eats furnaces make it unpleasant to use.

 I will however keep using it..........for the time being, as it is my proven method.

 I think it is great that people are spending their time experimenting this stuff time will tell if it becomes a norm practice or not.

[Rashelle]

You're right Steve, I was not looking at what section this was posted in. Though the original post was asking if people had forge welded without flux. The ones I have done were/ are mild to the best of my memory. Watching tool steel sparkler makes me cringe.

[Rich Hale]

May help if Justin would clear up a few things,,,are the "top smiths" welding high carbon steel? If they are getting it to sparkly heat are they able to make a blade from it later that will pass some kind of shop testing,,,,maybe similiar to the ones used by ABS?

The person he says is getting 100% success,,,,is that on high carbon?

The video shows fluxless welding on wot I supposse is mild steel considering wot it is going to be used for... He also mentioned kerosene,,,is this for mild or high carbon,,,Have any videos or information on that?

I use twenty mule team and success is really high for the high carbon steel billets and the knives I make from them. They pass shop testing here for bending and edge holding and the important looks folks want..

I have rammable refractory in my forge and it is not affected by the flux.....at least not after only a decade.

I would consider a change if the right information led me to it. But now with the price of steel and the prep work I put into it before the first weld I am not gonna try and fix something that for me is not broke.

[Steve Sells]

His first post, with the links that were removed appeard to be a sales pitch more than informational, but I will wait to see what this leads into, because like Baster, I too want to know more.

 

also note that 2300 F is too high for working with most blade steels.

[Chris john]

Im with Steve on this all the way  anytime you spark any steel used in knife or tool making

you have destroyed it integrity .

Chris 

[Justin Carnecchia]

  This method as I read it does not involve taking the steel to white hot. It is intended for pattern welding blade steels. From what I know most people have been using 1084 and 15n20, pretty much standard these days for damascus. It has also been reported that it works with mild to high carbon and with some of the tougher welding alloys including 5160.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  It is to a discussion on the ABS forum about pattern welding.

  I would encourage people to read it.

  The video posted above, I don't feel is relevant to this thread or to bladesmithing.

  I'm not sure about the reference to "sales pitch". I posted a link to a discussion on pattern welding without flux. I'm not sure that anyone on that forum or myself is trying to "sell" anything.  I was however excited to hear about this development, and thought others would be excited. While Borax does work, it has some serious draw backs. The most obvious is that it eats the lining of gas forges. It also has the tendency to leave inclusions, I feel this is especially so when you are setting the weld in a forging press. It also doesn't work to well when forging high alloy steels like 5160. 

 Mostly what I wanted when I started this post was to share this with people who didn't see it on the forum it was originally posted on. I would also love to hear back from others who try it. For those who are interested in learning new techniques, please read the original discussion. For those who think borax works great by all means stick with it. For those who think I am selling something or have some other motive, I don't know what to say.

 

Off site link removed yet again.  Poster is apparantly not aware that his link is valid only for registered ABS members.  that  link sends non members to a Pay for joining  page.

[Chinobi]

I have a couple of questions and thoughts on this.

 

one, that's the third time you have posted that link after moderators have removed it twice before, I cant imagine they are thrilled about that.  leave a detailed description of how to find the thread IMO; go to ABS website, hit the forums, look for [Dry Forge Welding Damascus (Without Flux Or Kerosene) - Topic For December 2013 Former title " Today's Damascus Foibles"]

 

im also a bit unclear as to the sales pitch part, except that it could be interpreted as aggressively pushing that thread to bump up views or some such.  hard to sell a box of no flux to not apply to your forge welding projects...

 

the main thread advocates taking the steel up to 2330, per my copy of Aspery's Mastering the Fundamentals: he points to roughly 2250 or thereabouts as 'forge welding range' and the upper practical forging range, in between lemon at 2200F and white at about 2500F (I couldn't find the chart/list I was looking for here with temperature colors of steel but I remembered Mark had one in MTF)

 

the process is described as running your forge up to temperature with a balanced fire and then choking it to run reducing when you put the billet in.  is this not similar to running up the blast in a coal/coke forge and then killing the air supply when you get up to temperature to starve the fire of oxygen?

 

the sparking of tool steel in a too hot fire (burning) is the carbon burning out of the surface layer right?  it seems like the offsite OP is proposing that the reducing atmosphere is so starved of oxygen that there is no available supply to burn out the carbon in the steel.

 

if the intent is to de-oxygenate any scale on the surfaces being welded, would that not leave a layer of pure-ish iron included in the weld seam after the oxygen has been removed?  does that affect the final composition of the billet?

 

beyond that im way out of my league here, I just wanted to see if I was understanding things correctly.

[Steve Sells]

First what have YOU welded?  you said in an earlier post you have not used this method, but seem very intent on getting us to agree with you.   Forget the off site info, tell us, show us what you forge welded this way and what steels.

 

5160 is not high alloy not is it hard to weld, it is different than simple steels, but still low alloy,  Forge weld some D2  and stainless and tell us about how its better to weld with out any flux, and how easy it is.

 

 

Re read the first post again, it sounds like Billy Mays the carnival barker for oxy clean and stuff,  that kind of sales pitch.  Your link had no info for non ABS members, we are sent to a "pay  to join the ABS" page. That is the only problem with the link

[Justin Carnecchia]

  I posted the link to share what I believe to be a relevant and important new development to how people make damascus.  It was my understanding that this forum was for just that, a place to exchange ideas and information.

  It did not occur to me that members/moderators here would have a problem with the ABS or the link posted. I'm moving a little slowly this morning, sorry about re-posting, I didn't realize that is what was happening.

  Again I'm a little confused about the sales pitch bit, all I can guess is that there is a problem with the ABS. I have no real interest in the politics of ABS non ABS smiths. I see many great smiths doing fantastic work that are not members of the ABS, but many that are. It shouldn't be that big a deal.

  As for the questions about the technique mentioned above, I am certainly not the person to ask. Like I mentioned I have not had the oppurtunity to try it. This is a big part of the reason I posted this topic, so others could try it. In my mind the free exchange of ideas is what has led to the current renaissance in bladesmithing. The more people trying it the better, and in the end the faster it can be perfected or if it turns out to be crap then rejected.

 I don't know any of the people in the original discussion on the other forum except for the original poster. So aside from being excited about it and in that excitement wanting to share it, I'm not sure how I was trying to sell it or anything else.

 Yes I have welded. I can't call myself advanced at pattern welding, but I have welded the basic 1084, 15n20. Also 1095, wrought, mild and various cables. Mainly random patterns and some w's.  I have mainly avoided more difficult alloys, or those reported as such since money is tight and failures in the shop affect my household budget.

  So anyway I'm sorry if I XXXXXX anyone off, that was certainly not my intention. If I broke some kind of rule by linking to another forum a simple pm would have corrected that.

 

A note was inserted after each edit, including this one for language. there is no free information at that link at all.  IFI does not give free advertizing.  If the ABS wants to advertize and get traffic and new members to their paid membership only site, they can arrange payment with this sites owner.

[ianinsa]

A couple of months ago I spent some time with John E. At Gearheart he has started doing fluxless Damascus blades and if I may say doing a grand job! As many of you will be aware JE isn't scared of tackling a tough project and he does really nice work. Further to this Ric assures me that he does not use flux either.

 

It's just not as simple as heat and beat it's more of get to the right temp. Let it soak and then smack it! Squeeze etc. And of course keep it clean!

 

Now I have welded a bit here and there and I happen to like borax as a flux( it allows/requires that I regularly get to buy new shirts :D ) but I have seen what John and Ric can do! Without flux! They may chime in here, but I would propose that one considers a course with Ric. Or PM either of these guys to get their perspective.

 

Ian

[Justin Carnecchia]

 John is the person who told me about it. Super nice guy, and he's been making some beautiful damascus.

[Steve Sells]

thank you  for your reply.  I prefer the safety net of using a flux.  clean steels, and wire brushing  and proper tempratures allow me good welds.  Your post indicated we all get inclusion because of the use of flux, that is in not true in my experience,

 

You just mentioned hating to lose a billet, I agree waste of materials and time as well. getting 100 layers and loosing it on the last stack to get the 300 I want.  So I use flux to help clean the weld, and exclude air. Also I take a slow heat, reducing fire in my coal, and brush sides to remove any scale.  I do not use a lot of flux, a 1 inch square (2.5 x 2.5 cm) billet, will use about 2 tablespoons over a 4 inch (10 cm) long section.    I use a very light coating, but it is a coating,  I was taught it is a flux not a glue, too much will cause troubles.  Maybe that is what your source was referring to about flux causing the inclusions in the case of excessive flux I have seen that happen.

 

some chrome containing steels like a little more help, I wont go into that here as its covered in the knife making classes, but L6 3160 and most of those are less than 1% chrome  and that is not enough to be a major pain.   If we watch scale formation.  Many do not, and  that is where they get into trouble with chrome bearing steels. to much air in the forge.

 

My best results with not using  flux is when using wrought iron, or in can welds.

 

I can see a problem using high alloy steels and even some not so high alloys having a very narrow welding range in combination, and not using any flux will require higher temps to weld, so more risk of failure. On the other hand in a gas forge it is possible to set the temp fairly close and reduce these added risks.

[Judson Yaggy]

I'm not a knife maker but I read this section occasionally and would like to know more about the technical details of forge welding alloys in a gas forge without fluxes.  Have welded flux-less in a coal forge many a time as was first introduced to me in a demo by Peter Ross but have had less success in a gas forge.  

 

This is not my website so I have no skin in the game, but I'm seriously disappointed in the editing away of an external link to possible information.  Were they actually hard selling something?   If so then getting rid of the link is ok in my book.  

 

As a blacksmith I buy occasional tools and materials on line, rarely and nothing that competes with the products offered by IFI.  Now I'm going to go to Google for a few hours and search out whatever useful information I can find (not buy anything, just look for education) on other websites.  If the link was still active I suspect that I could read for 5 minutes and then be back here in my happy place.  

 

Going to go read the ABS site for a while, feel free to yell at me while I'm away ;).

[metalmangeler]

I had thought about this a couple years ago, the idea being that a reducing fire would not produce scale and should weld w/o flux, the other thought that stopped any experimenting with this idea was that my shop is pretty tight and much of my knife work is in the winter and  carbon monoxide is not so good. As an aside does the kerosine in place of flux increase carbon in the billet?

[basher]

There is also a better thread than this on the bladesmiths forum in the hot work section . quite a few people posting who have done this.

 I wont post a link.

 This site does not exist in a vacuum and is far from the be all and end all as far as blade work is concerned.

[Glenn]

Post #1     the link  "removed commercial link with no real content" and noted in gray.
 
From the ABS website opening page.
 

Only active members of the American Bladesmith Society, Inc. are eligible to register as forum members and gain full access.

During registration for the Forum please use your first and last name as your user name, and the same email address that the ABS has on the membership database for you to register. Your user name and password for the Forum are separate and distinct from your login to the ABS website. The Forum Administrator will use the registration information that you provide to verify your ABS membership and email address. After verification of your email address and confirmation of ABS membership you will receive an email from the Forum Administrator advising that your registration request has been accepted and validated. You will then be able to Login as a member of the ABS Forum with full user privileges.

 
This is a READ ONLY site and closed to all non active ABS members. 
 
Post #14   The location link to the referenced discussion was posted and I followed it to the ABS discussion on the first try.
 
Post #16
 

I posted the link to share what I believe to be a relevant and important new development to how people make damascus. It was my understanding that this forum was for just that, a place to exchange ideas and information.

It did not occur to me that members/moderators here would have a problem with the ABS or the link posted.

 
IForgeIron is all about information. If you had reworded the discussion from the ABS forum and placed that information on IFI with a reference to the source, there would have been no problems. The ABS site which is a READ ONLY site and closed to all non active ABS members. There is no way to ask questions or provide information to their forum without being an active paid ABS member. IForgeIron allows anyone to  register and immediately post.  So by having the discussion on IForgeIron you can get better information, interact with the author, ask questions AND add your comments or information to the thread.
 
 
 

Basher
 This site does not exist in a vacuum and is far from the be all and end all as far as blade work is concerned.

 
IForgeIron is a blacksmithing and metalworking site and resource. We have made many changes and added many sections to keep the site current and interesting. The knife section was one of those sections.
 
One section of a site can not cover the same information as a entire site dedicated to just one subject. We can however get people interested in making knives, show them how it is done, and refer them to the specialty sites on the subject for a continued education. We would hope those sites would refer people looking for blacksmithing information to IForgeIron in return.
 
The discussion Basher refers to is on the bladesmith forum > hot work > no flux welding. It took me a while to locate the exact discussion he referenced.
-------------------------------------
 
IForgeIron is about blacksmithing and metalworking and providing the craft with information. If a reference is the answer to the question, then that is where the information is located. PLEASE take some time and read that off site material and provide us the short version in your own words as part of the current discussion on IForgeIron, and then reference the source so we can go there to read in more detail on the subject. This way we get the best information you and IForgeIron can provide on the subject.

[basher]

thanks for the reply Glenn

 

 I must admit that I was under the impression that putting a link of any kind was banned.

 

anyhoo.....

 

 

I had a chance to try this today, it seems to work incredibly well.

 I welded up a standard 7 layer stack ( standard for me) and twisted a 1 foot section 31 x 360 degrees.I forged a bit of it into a knife.

 so far so good.

 If anything I have a feeling that the weld is better than my normal flux welded version less layer separation at the edge (none in fact).......

 I welded under a 50 kg power hammer and did nothing different  from how I would normally weld in a gas forge apart from turning the gas up and not fluxing or oiling.

 I would like to thank J D Smith for sharing this and Justin Carnecchia for posting it here and making me aware of it.

 

as an aside ...... My 20 year Journyey through smithing has involved me learning  and trying no less than 7 variations on forge welding including this one (using borax and not) and all of them have worked well within their limitations , I have yet to try the paraffin (kerosene) ........

[TheoRockNazz]

Owen, did you have to play with the airflow at all?

I've been using another smith's two burner venturi and I am fairly certain the mixture is ideal for this sort of welding - she has flames shooting 3-6" from the mouth at all times. 

Letting the piece soak for 15 mins should still be safe in a gas rich environment, right?