Frosty Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I was wandering around the welding rod section of a local welding supply looking for possible good stuff in connection with an anvil rebuild for a local member. Okay, enough background. While looking and reading about various rods I saw cans of flux, picked one up and read the label. It's for brazing on all sorts of stock, first on the list is cast iron, good for brass, bronze, nickle and silver solder on most anything, next on the list was gas welding brass bronze, iron , steel and various alloys. The Patterson web site seems to have been written by a marketing guy so the claims there are suspect. The MSDS is pretty typical for a MSDS and isn't reliable for actual ingredients or use. Cool I thought so I read the ingredients: Boric acid, Borax and iron powder. HUH? that's the list of ingredients in virtually every forge welding flux I've ever encountered. Sooooo, I thought I'd ask here and bring the question before some 80,000 guys. Has anyone used Patterson #2 HT flux for forge welding? If so, how'd it work? Here with shipping included a 1lb. can is priced at $23 ANd it's on - the - shelf. Thanks guys, Frosty The Lucky! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 May be a great price where you are at but I can mix that up far cheaper down here with 20 mule team, roach proof---(I like to buy it even cheaper at the fleamarket!) and powdered iron that I just happened to scrounge over the years for my "possibles pile" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 23, 2013 Author Share Posted July 23, 2013 My current mix is 1pt. boric acid (roachpruf) to 3pts 20 mule team borax. Getting powdered iron here is about the same as shipping a LB. of anything. I'm really hoping to hear from someone who has used the Patterson flux so I can find out how it works without having to buy a can on spec. Yeah I now . . . it's the Scott in me. Frosty The Lucky! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 One can buy a whole pound of powdered iron for that price and mix up a lifetime supply of flux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Greetings Frosty, Glad to be back.... My latest favorite is 50 percent boric acid... and 50 percent iron oxide by weight... I get my iron oxide on Ebay from a pottery distributor. Its used to tint clay.. You can make a whole bunch of flux for much less. Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yahoo2 Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Some fluxes use ammonium chloride instead of boric acid to get a bit extra hydrochloric acid in the mix for a quicker clean and a lower welding heat. I sometimes buy boxes with old tins of flux in them (with the labels gone) at clearing sales for $1, most work with mild steel, haven't test any on alloy steels....yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 A google search for Patterson #2 HT Flux comes up with zero matches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 28, 2013 Author Share Posted July 28, 2013 Larry: This Google hit said about all thee was to say. The Petterson site was less informative and accurate, probably written by a marketing guy instead of someone who knows about fluxes. Did I write Patterson? It's Petterson, I probably miskeyed an A instead of the E. Mia culpa. Petterson #2 is a good search term. Some fluxes use ammonium chloride instead of boric acid to get a bit extra hydrochloric acid in the mix for a quicker clean and a lower welding heat. I sometimes buy boxes with old tins of flux in them (with the labels gone) at clearing sales for $1, most work with mild steel, haven't test any on alloy steels....yet The flux companies that list Ammonium chloride or any other chloride as an ingredient are either being written by marketing guys who don't know the subject or it's a typo. Both ammonia and Chlorine are powerful oxidizers, the exact opposite of what a flux needs to do. An acid is an oxidizer, not what you want in a flux, you're trying to remove or shield aganist oxidization. I know you've seen various chlorides in the ingredient lists, Petterson lists "sodium chloride" in one flux online it but that's a typo or marketing nonsence, not the real ingredients, there are no chlorides on the can's label, I've never seen a chloride on the list on the label of any commercial flux. I THINK this is an example of a clueless marketing hack putting stuff on the website to sound impressive. Borax is a strong base, caustic at forge welding temperature, making it a deoxidizer. Adding something that is or will make an acid would only neutralize the fluxing properties of the borax. Boric acid is added because it has a lower melting temperature forming an air barrier sooner and containing boron like borax so the weak acid is canceled out by the powerful base and the result is still a caustic deoxidizer at heat. Yeah, I read more than the cans. <grin> Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 28, 2013 Author Share Posted July 28, 2013 Greetings Frosty, Glad to be back.... My latest favorite is 50 percent boric acid... and 50 percent iron oxide by weight... I get my iron oxide on Ebay from a pottery distributor. Its used to tint clay.. You can make a whole bunch of flux for much less. Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Hi Jim: I see a lot of fluxes listing iron oxide as an ingredient and I've been putting it off as marketing bunk or typos. I know folk who us boric acid as it makes a good air barrier, melting so much cooler than fast scale forms, so being a weak acid doesn't make much difference. It's the iron oxide I question or rusty steel would weld easier than clean steel. What color iron powder are you buying? I know I can buy black iron powder at the art supply but they have black iron oxide powder on the same shelf too, so I don't know if there are two different products or mislabeling. the red ocre was fe2 O2, the black oxide was fe2 O3 and the can of black iron powder was fe2, just iron, no oxy. I've been mixing my own flux for a few years and I'd just like to find an inexpensive commercial flux that worked as well as Swan, Black Magic, Cherry Heat, etc. etc.. I know it's a dream but it's MY Scotts dream. <grin> I'm still hoping someone here's used the Petterson #2 and chimes. <sigh> Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Greetings Frosty, I hope you are well. Judging by your post your mind is sharp as a tack... I too have tried a whole bunch of fluxes in the past .. Even not so easy weld. The iron oxide I buy is terra cotta color. If you stick a magnet on it some of it will attract and some won't . I think it has a bit of silicone in it but that's OK.. It seems to work for me.. Like all fluxes it takes some getting used to . It does not flow like borax but clean up is easy. You can take back your weather any time .. It's been cold in Michigan for the last week, lows in the high 40s.. Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 29, 2013 Author Share Posted July 29, 2013 Salutations Jim: A brain is a funny thing, I'll get up to do something and by time I'm out of my chair I'm off on something else. Then something will trigger a memory and I'll be living it again. Sometimes it's word for word and makes connections I hadn't considered till the question comes up. Other times I just wish I could remember to turn the dishwasher on after loading it. <sigh> High 40's sounds good to me, it's been in the 80's here and I did NOT move to Alaska for this searingly inhuman heat! Then again it IS a dry heat. <grin> Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Well lucky, I can relate. I have type 2 bipolar illness, AADD and PTSD. Nothing like going around in circles looking for something you just set down, only to forget what your looking for ( I always blamed it on raising 2 girls) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 29, 2013 Author Share Posted July 29, 2013 Well lucky, I can relate. I have type 2 bipolar illness, AADD and PTSD. Nothing like going around in circles looking for something you just set down, only to forget what your looking for ( I always blamed it on raising 2 girls) Hmmmm, I THOUGHT we were on the same wavelength an awful lot for just getting acquainted. Heck, getting bread raised can have me yammering. If I didn't spend so much time going in circles I'd forget what the other part of the house looked like. <grin> Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Don't want to hijack your flux thread. But I certainly know that feeling. On top of that my oldest step daughter has ceribral palsy. Had a ceribral accedent at 3 days old. Brain is a strange, resiliant and wonderful thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 I can understand with my dyslexia I see the words spelled fine, then later the letters are messed up, they looked good to me the first time, then there is the getting side tracked, it can be a problem at..., Ohhh look a butterfly.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Somewhere I have the recipe for Hrisoulas' "steel glue" flux; got a lot of different stuff in it to work at various temps, etc. I'll try to dig it out and post it. The ammonium chloride is a soldering flux and so works at the lower temps---much like the zinc chloride used to solder with. Can't address the chemical process but killed HCl by adding zinc does work for soldering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Lol, I got my youngest a T shirt, "I don't have ADD, it's just... cute bunny!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Actually while borax is nice and mild at room temps, at forge welding temps it has a Ph of 2.2 that is very caustic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 OK dug out a CD that had my old blacksmithing directory saved to it before my computer died Steel Glue: Flux mix is as follows: 5 parts anhydrous borax 2 parts powdered boric acid 1 part powdered iron oxide (the real STUFF NOT the concrete dyes) 1/2 part Flourspar 1/4 part sal ammoniac This stuff sticks most anything together Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Dave Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Excuse my lack of knowledge, but what is Flourspar and sal amonniac? Where do I get these two products? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 typo of the original poster; fluorspar. And fluorspar is fluorspar---sorry Sal Ammoniac is used to clean soldering irons and amazon carries it amongst other places. Note this recipe was designed for pattern welding of alloys that resist welding---hence the fluorspar. It evolves toxic fumes in use and so is not suitable for welding of alloys not needing the FLUORINE in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 21, 2014 Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 It's been a while since I asked the initial Peterson flux question. I picked up a can seeing as nobody here had used it. I gave it a try a while back and it worked as well as the few other "real" forge welding fluxes I've tried, those being Cherry Heat and Swan. This past Saturday I brought the can to the Association of Alaskan Blacksmiths meeting to have the guys give it a try. I demoed it and "I think" three of the other guys gave it a try. All welds took first try, refined well and stood up to destructive testing. So, I feel "Peterson No.1 Blue Flux" works very well as a forge welding flux. The 16oz. can cost some $26.00 plus tax at the local welding supply here in Wasilla Ak. Shipping included. A 16oz. can of one of the "real" welding fluxes runs in the $50-$80 range plus shipping. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pault17 Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Thanks for sacrificing your wallet and time for the testing Frosty. I will have to look for it at the welding supply places around here. I remember at the Folk School in Brasstown, Roberta Elliot swore by stuff she called "Elmer's Glue" that was made up by Elmer Rousch. I seem to remember her saying it was basically rat poison and ferrous oxide powder in a 50/50 mix, but I may be mistaken. it worked well at welding temps, but I (in my totally neophyte experience) had similar success with straight ol' mule-team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 23, 2014 Author Share Posted April 23, 2014 Thanks for sacrificing your wallet and time for the testing Frosty. I will have to look for it at the welding supply places around here. I remember at the Folk School in Brasstown, Roberta Elliot swore by stuff she called "Elmer's Glue" that was made up by Elmer Rousch. I seem to remember her saying it was basically rat poison and ferrous oxide powder in a 50/50 mix, but I may be mistaken. it worked well at welding temps, but I (in my totally neophyte experience) had similar success with straight ol' mule-team Probably not rat poison, cockroach poison is good, better known as Roachpruf or Boric acid. Boric acid has a lower melting temp than borax so it encapsulates the join sooner. I use 1pt. boric acid to 3-4 pt. borax in my home brew flux. I'm going to have to ask Elmer or Linda about the ferrous oxide, I have trouble believing anyone would put ferrous oxide in a welding flux. The purpose of welding flux is to prevent the stock form oxidizing, not adding it to the joint. You have me thinking about the "sacrificing my wallet" thing, maybe I should contact Peterson about a cut of sales for blacksmiths using it for welding flux. Hmmmmm. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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