blitzs Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 I have just started to forge, and I have a question about metals. Can someone please tell me which metals are toxic when burnt and metals that are safe? I know galvanized metals are toxic but how do you identify them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Special Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Toxic metals? Zinc and zinc containing metals, like brass, some "bronzes", pennies made after 86. Lead, some steels with chromium in them. Some titanium alloys. The patina (green or blue stuff) can be toxic on copper, and it can be toxic if used to cook in.......and on and on.....although not as likely to run into cadmium and such.... Zinc's the really nasty one to watch for. Looks greyish, or whitish on steel, like on galvanized chainlink fence. Don't try to burn it off or melt it. Trust me, zinc poisoning sucks. Good ventilation is pretty much key anytime working with a furnace, forge, or metals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 ok i keep seeing this come up and i made a point of chasing down a non-wikipedia reference for it this time. the United States penny officially changed composition from 95% copper and 5% zinc (the 'solid' copper version, though there is still zinc content) to 97.5% zinc and 2.5% copper (the copper plated version we all hate melting) in 1982. Coins of both types were minted in 1982 and as there is no month or day entry in the mint date the only way to verify a 1982 penny's composition is to weigh it or cut it open and look. i used to always think it was later than that too but due to recent confusion i had to look it up and verify. this link is to the united states mint website article covering the chronology of the composition of the cent. http://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint/fun_facts/?action=fun_facts2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 There is an entire section about toxic metals on IFI but for a quicky rule of thumb don't try forging anything that's plated. Or to paraphrase, "No rust, don't trust." Look at a galvanized bucket, washtub, etc. or galvy chain, etc. at the hardware store. It'll be labled as galvanized so you can get a good idea of what it looks like. If you see a green flame on stock in your forge, move out of the smoke, cross wind is best. Straight up wind can cause turbulence just downwind of you and draw fumes in. Anyway, zinc isn't the toxin folk think, heck zinc is a necessary nutrient, without zinc you won't live long. It's the overdose that does the harm so stay out of the smoke. The smoke is a bluish white with a stringy sooty look. It's not a good thing but unless you have a sensitivity to it it isn't going to do you in. Don't panic. The really BAD metal to breath is Cadmium like you see on gold colored nuts and bolts. There is NO safe minimum dose, this is one to NEVER put in the forge, NEVER grind, NEVER weld without serious and specific filtered breathing gear. Heck, none of it's good for you, stay out of ALL the smoke and fumes you can. coal smoke is worse than annoying and a well tuned gas forge is pumping out CO. Good ventilation and keep clear. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Frosty is right as usual about the crap that is put out by a badly tuned gas forge CO is a silent killer in a closed up garage or shed in the winter months when you are forging, makes the others look like a Sunday School picnic. Coal has lots of stuff in it but here again it's mostly about ventilation. And over the years one kinda gets in the habit of just not forging any metal that is coated or painted without first seeing what it is, life is short, death is long but put the wrong thing in the forge and you can have a long lingering path to the long sleep. Forge clean metal only and that includes rusty stuff too as that means it ain't got nothing on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Cadmium is NASTY; as is chrome. Life's too short to forge plated metal! Zinc is actually one of the less hazardous ones though it did kill a friend of mine and has put a lot of my welder friends in the hospital for a stay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobL Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 One of the best things I included when I built my home shop was a small fume hood with overhead canopy and wrap around doors. I measured the fan air speed and it pulls 500 cfm. I use it for welding, metal grinding, and cutting and small spray painting jobs, and now I find I can back my gas forge up to it so the forge exhaust vent is effectively under the fume hood canopy and is thus exhausted outside the shop. If I wish I can also switch on my wood working dust extractor (1260 cfm) which has intakes at the other end of the shop and also vents outside my shop. The two units combined will theoretically vent my shop in just over two minutes. I did not have a forge anywhere near my horizon when I built the fume hood but I'm sure glad I built it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blitzs Posted April 27, 2013 Author Share Posted April 27, 2013 Thank you all for the replies, I have another question, how about aluminium? I am also making a brand new forge and I am planning to use Duralumin as the base for the charcoal, I heard people say that aluminium also releases toxic gases, is it safe to use duralumin, or should I change to something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Not to breathe dust or vapors from beryllium copper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 Treat any metal; as toxic when heated, and when fine airborne particles are created. I got some info on Beryllium since I have a bunch, and basically was told it does not hot forge well. Best practice is to solution anneal, then forge cold. Berylliosis (sp?) is a problem when inhalation has occurred over time of dust during polishing, or sanding. Always use proper PPE when working with metals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick1018 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Just a quick question, i am building a brake drum forge, however, the only piping for the air inlet are galvinized. this forged is being used OUTSIDE only, just wondering if there is anything else i can do to help protect myself. i can only find the zinc ones here and if i had any other option i would jump on it. i have heard that burning it indoors is deadly and have read the story of paw paw. my forge is outside and all the piping is for is to have something to move air through. will the pipe smoke even though i am not directly heating it. thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Nick, you should be fine. The problem occurs when it is heated enough to start burning the zinc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick1018 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Note: my daughter is in Vet school and reports more and more cases of dogs running into trouble with zinc toxicity from swallowing pennies. Water is necessary for life too but over exposure or over injestion can kill you... I'm going to be a lot more careful ariound the grandkids and pennies now too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eseemann Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Nobody Special brings up an interesting historical point when he said "patina (green or blue stuff) can be toxic on copper". The English used a hide glue to secure the arrow head and fetching for their arrows. Hide glues are made from "protein colloid glues are formed through hydrolysis of the collagen from skins, bones, tendons, and other tissues, similar to gelatin." In simple terms the glue is a good food source to all manners of pests. The way they kept the vermin from eating the arrows was to mix copper acetate (green patina) in to the hide glue. The copper acetate was a product of hanging some copper plate and wine or vinegar. The kicker was that hide glue is water (and blood) soluble. When someone gets an arrow in them some of the hide glue may leach in to the wound from the head. If you have to pull the arrow though then you get a dose from the fetching glue. The French said the English were using poisoned arrows and the English could never understand why the French would say such things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Nobody Special brings up an interesting historical point when he said "patina (green or blue stuff) can be toxic on copper". The English used a hide glue to secure the arrow head and fetching for their arrows. Hide glues are made from "protein colloid glues are formed through hydrolysis of the collagen from skins, bones, tendons, and other tissues, similar to gelatin." In simple terms the glue is a good food source to all manners of pests. The way they kept the vermin from eating the arrows was to mix copper acetate (green patina) in to the hide glue. The copper acetate was a product of hanging some copper plate and wine or vinegar. The kicker was that hide glue is water (and blood) soluble. When someone gets an arrow in them some of the hide glue may leach in to the wound from the head. If you have to pull the arrow though then you get a dose from the fetching glue. The French said the English were using poisoned arrows and the English could never understand why the French would say such things. I always snap the fletching off before I pull an arrow through anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I have to say, I have used a lot of grade 8 bolts over the years to make tooling (esp. flypress tooling). I knew cadmium was bad, and I knew the gold colored bolts were cad plated, but never really though too much about it. *factoid* the single commonality found in the brains of mass murderers; excess cadmium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Ivan Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I always snap the fletching off before I pull an arrow through anyone. Is that a common situation for you? :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 here the use of cadmium in plating has been banned for years except on navy subs IIRC the yellow passivate on zinc plate was chrome based and that seems to have stopped being a while ago dont know about other countries though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Actually biologically active slime building up on hide glues under "moist" conditions in the field would probably be a worse killer than some verdigris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eseemann Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Thomas, any way you look at it there were not Punji Sitcks but anything that has that much of a microbe resort on each arrow is going to end badly for the guy getting shot. I had not thought about that angle. When you think about it the hide glue sounds a good bit like the stuff they would use in middle school science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Hide glue is still used as it can be "un-done" at a later time. I have read that high end musical instruments are repaired with hide glue as it was what the original stuff was and over a uselife of centuries they expect it to get repaired a lot! Me I'm more of a titebond II guy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eseemann Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 My Dad was a book publisher and printer. He told me that glue from fish bones and the like were like that. Stronger than need be and last for centuries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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