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I Forge Iron

Looking for size resources for gates


billyO

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Hello all.  I'm new to larger projects (railings, gates both garden and driveway, etc) and am looking for information regarding minimum size requirements/suggestions for stock. 

 

Are there any resources other than experience that provides this information?  ie:  would 1/2" x 2" be too small, overkill, 'bout right etc for the outer frame of a gate?  Is 1/4" square too small for inner frame elements?  when scaling up to a 6', 8', 10' span how should one scale up the stock size?

 

thanks in advance

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experience is king on this kind of decisions but most of  the time 1/4 stock is a bit small .. it really depends on dezign tho ... shapes make a big difference and things that help are trianlulation and box shapes ... if your looking at traditional dezigns you can get a start from places like kings architectural metals.. but nothing beats experience ...

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When I first started out I too had the same questions as you. What work for me the best is in my travels, if I saw a gate I like I would stop look and take pictures and make notes of materials of what I saw and started to fiqure out what would work for me. In a sence I was able to learn what to do and what not to do by looking at other peoples work. When looking at pictures of gates in books you can also get a size, design and relationship in the photos by scaleing other items in the photo.

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  • 1 year later...

I spent thirteen years in ornamental ironwork, and another forty-two thinking about it afterward. I can tell you that experience is not enough by itself. One of the things you need to do is send for, and study, ornamental iron work supply catalogs. Than too, there was a set of five ornamental ironwork books once; they were  called "the gold books" by guys in the trade. If you can still find a set, they would be quite helpful in answering stock size questions. Here are two hints to start with: (1) NEVER use solid stock on the frame or pickets of a gate more than three feet wide; (2) When in doubt ALWAYS choose the larger--not the smaller--stock you are considering.

 

If, in sheer ignorance, customers hint that you are trying to save money on frame and picket stock by using square or rectangular tube, ask them how much its equivalent in solid stock would wiegh, and how they plan on keeping such a load from destroying whatever it is suspended from.

 

BUT, outside of matters that take experience, like the weight of gates, just remember that whatever troubles your eye will also trouble the customer's; they may not have a clue about good design, but every last one of them can see what's wrong with what you're offering, whether they can put it into words or not!

 

Final hint; when it comes to designs, go to a stained glass supply and look at their books. Buy a couple, and use them to teach yourself what's hot and whats not, in possible ornamental iron designs. This advice is free, but it's not cheap; it cost me a working lifetime to perfect; you might get more, but you won't get better.

Michael Porter

michael.a.porter@comcast.net 

 

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It all depends...

My first domestic garden gate was forged from 3/4" square for the backstile and bottom bar a 5/8" square front stile and top rail with 1/2" square uprights. An early commission used 2" x 1/2" on flat with joggled and riveted corner joints for the frame.

I have made gates from slabs of 12mm (1/2") plate and the current pair in the forge are mainly from 40 x 12mm (1 1/2" x 1/2") flat. The heaviest gates had an 80mm (3 1/4") square backstile the full height uprights were 60x30mm (2 3/8"x 1 1/16") and the dog bars and frieze were from 60mm (2 3/8") square, the lower horizontals were from 60mm diameter and the upper from 50mm, all in all they weighed in at 1750 kgs (1 3/4 tonnes) per leaf.

I have very rarely used hollow section, on the occasion that I have it is often two pieces of channel welded tip to tip which produces a square cornered profile and blends better with the solid square elements.

As the others have said have a look at other gates and go with the sizes that look good to you.

Go with your instinct, if it looks too heavy or light it probably is.

Alan

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It is interesting to note that some people try to mimic cast iron ornamental ironwork with forged steel. Steel can make a much lighter airier looking piece that has even greater strength than the heavy cast iron one that requires the extra weight to hold itself together.

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Yes, the authority of mass is not to be ignored.

When you study the development of Albert Paley' s work the notions of power and strength which are displayed and the relatively minor role that size plays rather than his mastery of scale and proportion....interesting area.

Alan

It is interesting to note that some people try to mimic cast iron ornamental ironwork with forged steel. Steel can make a much lighter airier looking piece that has even greater strength than the heavy cast iron one that requires the extra weight to hold itself together.

 
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This info may or may not help someone. We completed hanging a wooden double gate today. Each wooden gate was 6' 3" wide by 8' tall by 2 3/4" thick, pretty heavy. The hinges were 1/4" x 2" x 40" with forge welded barrels drifted to 5/8". The 5/8"D pintles were on a 1/4" plate with one 1/2"D allthread bolt going through the plate and the thick wooden pier and fastened with washers and nuts. The four corners of the plate were further reinforced with Timberlock screws.

 

It all worked. Dimensions were based on past experience and guesstimation.

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Find  NOMMA member close to you and ask to speak with them.

 

I like to brace the bottom of the swinging member on the ground and use a stainless ball pivot rather than a lower hinge. Hinges like to fail....a 5/8" stainless ball will pivot for an astounding number of years. Add grease zirks on pivot areas.

 

If you go light on stock then use cross bracing in the design and it is common to build the longer gates out of true so when they sag under their own weight they sag back into true.

 

There was a series of articles from one of Samuel Yellin's main workers....they were published in "The Anvil's Ring" maybe 20 years ago. There was very good info in them.

 

Ric

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I've never used tubular stock in any of my gates or railings. its hard to set a tenon in tubular stock or upset a transition or heel.

I use traditional joinery.

scrolls and other curves are a nice replacement for gussets and add the same or close structural strength, all things considered.

I roughly figure 1/8" per foot for sag, so an 8' gate would be built 1" out of square.

I think of the weight of iron(cross section) as line in a drawing so use my eye with a full scale drawing in chalk to determine proper solid stock.

some advice from long ago, and reinforced by my personal experience, if you want a light and delicate product, start with heavier stock and forge it light and delicate. too light a starting material will end up thin and wispy.

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