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Upsetting. For Real?


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MecQZp0Gz9s

This really works?? I seriously need more information than this.

I made a spring steel upsetting bar like the guy said. The bar stock slips through the tapered hole. When I strike the end of the bar stock it bends in six different directions. Tha last thing it will do is upset on the end.

I had very limited luck by heating the end and cooling the stock in the slack tub, all but for 1" of it allowing it to remain at orange heat. The stock still bends everywhich way, but not quite as bad.

I thought about tapering the struck end, but still no luck.

Anyone with a tip or two about how this really works in real life?
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Notice he is constantly fixing the bend on the anvil surface after a little bit of upsetting. Yes this works in real life. You want the heat on the very end and you want to constantly turn the bar as you upset to even out the upset and the moment you notice a bend in the steel you want to fix it. (kind of a 2 steps forward 1 step back sorta deal) Ideally as he upsets the head in the header you want to turn it and strike it each time from a different direction so you don't upset it to much to one side of the shaft of the rivet. You can also upset over the edge of the anvil by sliding the stock in your left hand over the anvil and just as it passes the far edge of your anvil having your hammer swing and hit it just over the far side of the anvil (this relates to the two cars hitting each other at 50 miles an hour as opposed to hitting a brick wall at 50 miles an hour it also saves your shoulder by absorbing the energy of the impact in the impact instead of in your shoulder. In all cases when upsetting you want to strike from a different direction each time to even out mistakes and upset it as evenly as possible, this can be done by either turning the stock as you strike it or walking around the stock as you strike it. You can also take two pieces of angle iron, clamp them in a drill vice with a piece of card stock between them and drill out the size of stock our going to use. To make one in that tool you just heat up the end and place it in the round hole between plates in the vice with the just under 1 and a half diameter length sticking up from the plates clamp the plates in a vice and upset the end down into a head by walking around it and striking the end. You can then clean it up with a cup tool (otherwise known as a rivet header) Upsetting is just that upsetting. You may be striking it to hard or the end might not be square with the shaft. The heat might be still to long for the size of shaft (think 1 and 1/2 diameter of stock = length of material for an upset usually just under is better) I suggest trying it with just a little bit of heat on the very end and light blows till you get the hang of rotating the stock and fixing the bends that happen. Many hardy tools can be made in this way with stock that is just over the hardy hole size and then tapered down to fit. As it is upset down into the hardy hole it creates a shoulder. That is just the same thing only with larger stock. Mark asperys first book I think has some good pictures and info on upsetting. I hope that helps.

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Steve O : you could not have said it better. I was writing a long post when I received the notification of yours, then I lost mine.... ...Rotating the stock is the key for a quick , straight, upset......once you know your hands. Pleased to meet you

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Another way is to just use straight rod for a rivet and make both heads with the rivet in place. You have to alternately hammer on one side and then the other and use a bolster in the beginning to keep enough metal on the bottom to make your head with. If you are careful you can get by without the bolster but it's helpful. The video shows a pretty inefficient method and pretty early skill levels IMO.

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The method I prefer is to drill a hole in a block of steel as thick as the length of the rivet shank, cut your round stock long enough to form the head. Heat the end of the rivet stock,drop it in the hole and shape the head, flip it over and pop it out with a punch. It helps to have a circle marked around the hole the size of the desired head to keep it centered and uniform size as you hammer it to shape. The circle can be inscribed in with a curved chisel or just a series of center punch marks.

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Larry H nice to meet you too.

bigfootnampa I agree there are more efficient ways to make one. I forgot to mention that way of making a rivit head. I have done it that way using a cup tool (rivit header) as the backup for the bottom and the key to that one is flipping it after each hit and rotating it (kinda like patting your head and rubbing your belly at the same time). The vice inserts I talked about is probably better if your going to make a lot of one size ahead of time because you can use a torch to heat it up then head it and cut it to a preset length with a vertical bandsaw.

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Here's a little tip I learned recently. When heading stock use a light hammer. The heavier the hammer the farther down the stock it'll upset and it'll bend more as well.

Rotating the stock and correcting the bend as soon as it starts are the ticket however you upset. Remember when straightening a bend don't lay it on the anvil and hit it, just the end and hit it behind the bend or you'll draw the upset area thinner. It turns into a do-undo contest.

Stephen: Had I known you were in Minneapolis I may have been able to entice you to a little Shindig some friends of mine threw in Elk River. Just a bunch of metal heads who get together once a year to swap tips, tricks and shots. Lots of fun and educational.

Frosty the Lucky.

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Well, excuse me for having fun when I started to run in blacksmithing. This was an instructional video for the bare beginner.
No fancy tools or torches, just the forge, hammer and anvil.

I also see some guys mentioning "efficientcy". Do you really think that that will matter for a beginner?
If so, I double dare you to make a video my way.

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Was that your video Joe? I didn't watch it I just tossed in my favorite upsetting method. And yes efficiency is important to a beginner, the sooner they can see good results and the less work it takes to get them is important. Very important.

Frosty the Lucky.

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On 9/10/2012 at 1:26 AM, Frosty said:
Was that your video Joe? I didn't watch it I just tossed in my favorite upsetting method. And yes efficiency is important to a beginner, the sooner they can see good results and the less work it takes to get them is important. Very important.


When can I expect the video, Frosty?

I don't see it as important, what matters is that they can get it done. And when they can get it done, they practise. This craft is something you cannot force.

 

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One other tip given to me and this is not just for upsetting, make a pee can and have it next to the slack tub. The small stream that comes out really helps to isolate the heat. The pee can is made from a coffee can or a bean can can be any size can. You take the can and put a handle on it then punch or drill a quarter inch hole in the side at the bottom of the can. Fill can and let it pee into the slack tub then put your steel under the stream where you want it cooled off.

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The method I prefer is to drill a hole in a block of steel as thick as the length of the rivet shank, cut your round stock long enough to form the head. Heat the end of the rivet stock,drop it in the hole and shape the head, flip it over and pop it out with a punch. It helps to have a circle marked around the hole the size of the desired head to keep it centered and uniform size as you hammer it to shape. The circle can be inscribed in with a curved chisel or just a series of center punch marks.


I'm with you here on this method dk and I like your idea of the centering circle......Get em done, crank em out I say......7-8 minutes each is tedium imo.
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It is helpful to blunt point the end before upsetting, because it helps to get rid of the valve head, golf tee appearence. On round stock, S.O.R. a uniform, short truncated cone. It centralizes the upset, and it pushes the upset a little farther back on the rod. As a rule of thumb, I try to keep my heat length not more that 2 1/2 times the diameter of the stock. I've been known to plunge my arm in the slack water with the hot end up in order to shorten the heat. A tin can of water works, but work quickly.

Upsetting in the vise is a good way, except that you may get vise jaw marks. Also, the vise may squeeze (reduce) the small stock too much. When I don't want vise jaw marks, I have recently begun to quench to shorten the heat BEFORE going to the vise. In that way, the vise is gripping chilled metal. Upsetting in the vise is often done by placing the work in horizontally to gain more gripping surface.

I use a Presto brand correction pen (office supply) to draw a concentric circle around the header hole. When the head is being formed, be aware that you may need to use angular correction blows right from the git-go. A ball face or ball peen hammer may help.

I understand that the video is showing one method of rivet making, albeit time consuming. For a one of a kind, I suppose that would be OK, the question being, how to make multiples all with a uniform head? Especially for decorative work, you don't want one head thick, one head thin, one a small D, another a large D. That's the problem when putting a taper into a header. One taper may not match another taper. Another method is shown in Schwarzkopf* where an oversized diameter length of stock is necked down, S.O.R., on the near radiused edge of the anvil with edge to edge blows, until it fits into the header. The head distance is notched a known distance from the shoulder. This is time consuming, but at least you have the shoulder as a point of reference.

Heating a short, hot piece in the header sounds like one route to go, if the header is the thickness of the proper length of the rivet shank. Previous upsetting is not necessary.

Another route is the clamp with the near half-round drilled holes. Using the clamp eliminates preliminary upsetting.
The heading tool(header)is not any old plate with holes drilled in it. Ideally, it should be substantially thick, made of tool steel, and have a crowned upper surface. The crowning helps to keep the edge of the hammer face off the tool when using angle blows. The hole will be "countersunk" so that the rivet doesn't choke into the hole. It needs an easy release.
* "Plain and Ornamental Forging"

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When can I expect the video, Frosty?

I don't see it as important, what matters is that they can get it done. And when they can get it done, they practise. This craft is something you cannot force.


a TRADE is something that challenges the apprentice, and therefore forces them to work out and uphold efficient work methods and values. every apprentice starts as a beginner.

it sorts the men from the boys.... (figuratively speaking)

this trade is just that.

as a CRAFT (by your definition), you can take as long as you want, and use as much fuel as you can afford......

i would take up your challenge joe, but i cannot justify buying a video recorder or camera, when i could spend my money on tools that could assist my trade.

well done on the video joe, and i like your hat.
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My only observation is that making tapered square nails in a header is an easier way to demonstrate this type of upsetting and heading. I can do nails in 2 or 3 heats typically, even though they can be done in 1 heat by others.

As for bulking a small quantity of material on the end of a bar, this works fine...and is a pain in the butt when the metal goes all squigly.

I am not good at this method but have tried it.

Phil

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For outstandingly speedy upsetting (without resorting to a chipping hammer/ muffler gun type air tool, presses or power hammers) use two hammers. Use fairly light hammers, and if needed for accuracy use a very light hammer in your off hand and a light hammer in your dominant hand.

Holding the work will take some creativity, use a vise or spacer blocks on the anvil, etc. As you are hammering walk in a circle around your work to equalize whatever bending forces less than perfect hammer blows may impart.

With practice you can get up to 4 snappy blows per second, about as good as upsetting gets without external power sources.

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For outstandingly speedy upsetting (without resorting to a chipping hammer/ muffler gun type air tool, presses or power hammers) use two hammers. Use fairly light hammers, and if needed for accuracy use a very light hammer in your off hand and a light hammer in your dominant hand.

Holding the work will take some creativity, use a vise or spacer blocks on the anvil, etc. As you are hammering walk in a circle around your work to equalize whatever bending forces less than perfect hammer blows may impart.

With practice you can get up to 4 snappy blows per second, about as good as upsetting gets without external power sources.

.
I saw Smyth Boone do this at last years BAM confrence. I never tried it myself, but it was very effective on 5/16" round stock.
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Well frosty maybe next time :D

Hey I wasn't comenting on the video. I think it was well done. Just trying to help the person understand what they were seeing and some other tricks to it. More than one way to skin a cat and all.


Stephen: Seems you AND Joe think I was criticizing, my only intent was to add my favorite trick to efficiently upsetting the end of a bar.

Seeing as Joe seems to think I was being critical I viewed the video and this does indeed lead me to make some observations. I'm still not being critical Joe but you brought it up. No I don't do videos, I teach face to face.

You spent more than 6 minutes upsetting a piece maybe 3% or so. So efficiency isn't part of the game. Watching the upset end repeatedly drawn down to correct bending illustrates why straightening should be done either over the hardy hole or off the edge of the anvil. All that's needed is a little straightening, that's removing bend or bending it back. Drawing the thickness down is counter productive though it's really common for beginners.

To straighten a little bend simply place it high end up, and give the end a light tap, when the hammer kissed the shaft of the rivet you're DONE, stop and go back to upsetting if it's not large enough yet. Same for doing it over the edge of the anvil, in both cases use half face blows, that's the hammer face strikes half on half off the anvil face.

When it comes to dressing the shaft below the upset end, again use half face blows to avoid drawing the head down and do it off the edge of the anvil.

Lastly, once you've headed your rivet don't take it out of the header to cut it from the stock, use the header to hold it, score it deeply and break it by bending. This will save you wear and tear on both your hardy and your hammers. Once again it'll save you time at the anvil, walking back and forth to the forge and IN the forge. Time IS money, saved fuel is money.

The folks I show what I know aren't rich or they'd fly to one of the big name schools and I'd get them to teach me things when they came back.

I've seen video from way back of the two hammer upsetting technique. In that case the smith was working what looked like 3/4" or better stock and at least doubled it's dia. in maybe two minutes. Truly inspiring.

Frosty The Lucky.
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Sure it's quick but the whole planet's bucking for you. <grin> Well done.

Frosty The Lucky.

Very funny. Thats not my video by the way....here is one of me upsetting some big hex bar. Pretty low tech but it works. In this case I didnt mind the bending in fact tried to upset the end and develope a slight bend. It was for a sculpture I did, I wasnt making giant hex rivets.
Dan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWBtLQf5iA0
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Suboc, both videos were great to see.

I'd like to ask a question, this just seems like the right place.

What are the limits on upsetting?
When is it more advisable to add/increase material through welding? I don't think a many people consider this when they see an extremely "upset" bar.

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Suboc, both videos were great to see.

I'd like to ask a question, this just seems like the right place.

What are the limits on upsetting
When is it more advisable to add increase material through welding? I don't think a many people consider this when they see an extremely "upset" bar.

Not sure I understand your question about adding material through welding. I think for instance if you are wanting to have a 1/2" round bar flare out to a 3" diameter, you would be better off drawing down the 3" bar to 1/2" instead of trying to upset the 1/2" bar to 3"....I'm not sure what the limits are, it's a matter of controlling power, heat, and the correct amount of material to give you the desired amount of upset. Controlling how an upset develops is a matter of adjusting the length of heat, and the angle of strike, or press. A longer heat results in more bending and a gradual flaring. A shorter heat produces a more pronounced flaring at the end. I tend to try to upset with straight on flat hits to the end of a bar. Hammering around the edges will produce a thin lip and not a good upset. Non of this probably answers your question, but I tried.
Dan
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