Colin Davies Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 "knew all about blacksmithing as they had done it in a videogame" I do a bit of gaming myself, and I have to say that this is a constant source of amusement and anguish. When the character is calmly grasping the white-hot end of a bar and whaling on the cold part in the air above the anvil, you get an accurate idea of the general population's understanding of the craft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I do a bit of gaming myself, and I have to say that this is a constant source of amusement and anguish. When the character is calmly grasping the white-hot end of a bar and whaling on the cold part in the air above the anvil, you get an accurate idea of the general population's understanding of the craft. That is funny, but I do believe it. The people doing the animations for computer games, the other programming, as well as animations for movies and television likely have no experience with metalwork even as a spectator to a real person. That s comes out "pretty good" often times is pretty amazing. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksnagel Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Too be honest this forum has declined in the going on three years that the blueprints have been removed. now adays it is just rumor. why can't the new blueprints be permanently added the day of reveal. I think glen and them are deliberately holding the blueprints back to write a book. Sorry that you are upset origami roofs. Perhaps your dues or membership fees are too high? This site is a source of great knowledge and experience. One of many things I like here is that the membership is so diverse. With such a diverse crowd we get diverse personalities. I overlook questions that do not interest me and answer ones that I feel are within my limits. Mostly I am a sponge and soak up all I can. Mark <>< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigred1o1 Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 i think all the blue prints are still here http://www.iforgeiron.com/page/index.html/_/blueprints/?view=archive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsberg Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Hey GNJC, You make a very good point. However I would like to point out that during the Industrial Revolution the sharing of ideas was not done freely. Take for instance Corliss' steam engine. His valve gear and valve type was a massive advancement in steam economy and a great step in the Industrial Revolution. He won the coveted Montyon Award in 1878 for his engine, in great part because 80% of the steam engines on exhibit and in use had imitations of his valve type! At the time he was best known for the gear cutting machine which he had invented. When companies would call to acquire one of his gear cutting machines he would tell them NO, you can't have one, they are MINE! He was adament that only his companies would use his gear cutting machines and they would only sell the made gears. This was rather common at the time and frankly it still is. Within a company there was a lot of idea sharing, but between companies it was more a matter of "idea theft" then anything else. The exceptions were the meetings of the engineering societies, which often broke down into arguments(as can be seen from their records) . My point being that back 100 years ago it behoved the smiths to keep their techniques to themselves, since they were competing, literally, with someone across the street from themselves. Today, this type of competition is practically non existant in the blacksmithing world and it behoves us all to share our ideas and knowledge openly. Let the Blacksmithing Revolution continue!!! Caleb Ramsby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 There is something in higher education called a "practicum." It consists of a period of practical application of a subject that a person has already studied, theorized, and discussedt. I served three months as a student teacher after taking my education classes. It was considered a practicum. In certain instances, I think that the practicum method of learning is somewhat backwards. My personal experience, at least with short-course students of blacksmithing, is to give them forge welding on the first day. They all get through it, and it creates questions. It make students want to hit the books and find out why the metal's soft when it's hot; why does it change color; why can we weld without melting the pieces together; and what is flux all about? This is like an abbreviated practicum first and intensive study second. It works. It's also been my experience that when a student is interested in a subject and gives tuition, there are no motivation problems. They hustle. Some are driven. In a hands-on situation, a student is really on real time, not virtually on real time. But now we have the internet and we are going to deal with it, even though it's a two edged sword. We deal with forum questions and answers the best we can. We just can't know whether the recipient is deserving or not. I may not be a curmudgeon, but I'm approaching geezerhood. I very much desire to share what I've struggled with over the years, realizing that "nobody knows 10% of anything." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I am not big on trial and error which is why I answer so many questions in areas I have experimented in over the last 30+ years of smithing---a lot of experimental archeology gets you into areas where there are no books! Thomas...I rather like you and the odd vantage point you inhabit. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 That is funny, but I do believe it. The people doing the animations for computer games, the other programming, as well as animations for movies and television likely have no experience with metalwork even as a spectator to a real person. That s comes out "pretty good" often times is pretty amazing. Phil Phil and All, The term which I had heard first from Mike Blue (knifemaker in Minnesota) was that such folk were "VIRTUAL SMITHS"...I have yet to hear a better definition. The casting of the Conan "father sword" sword being one of the best and enduring examples. For smithing only I'd have to point out the hit the anvil hard and then tap the work which is all too common on TV. Getting back to the subject of the thread though I have to agree that there is a vast difference between asking "when I do X then Y happens...but I wanted Z to occur..what went wrong?" and asking "tell me everything you know about X cause I'm thinking about trying it one day." Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 When tai chi chuan teacher, Benjamin Lo, was asked, "What did I do wrong?" he replied, "You aren't doing anything wrong; you just don't have it yet." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 So what do I do with the knowledge I have acquired? I wasn't born with it, some of it I got from asking questions of others, some of it I got from trial and error, some of it I got from reading what others have reduces to writing. But, if I don't pass it on, it dies with me. In my case, not much of a loss but with others, it would be. I have no way of knowing the sincerity of anyone who asks a question on this forum but I have the option of either responding to a question or not. What have I lost if the answer is not used, nothing. What have I lost if i do not respond, an opportunity to pass on knowledge. If the person who posed the question does not use the answer, there are others who read it and may benefit from it. No sense getting your shorts in a wad if you don't happen to like the question or the way it's posed. If the question causes you grief, simply ignore it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) this is a difficult craft to even approach. Almost everything in this forum would make no sense to me without a basic understanding of metallurgy and having been instructed by an actual blacksmith both gained from college. I think that a great number of questions rise here on the forums because the blueprints have been all but abandon. when I fist joined i forge the blueprints were in good order, easily accessed, and reduced the amount of junk posts here. as far as I can tell the blueprints have been all but abandoned except on tuesday at 9 oclock central standard time. Too be honest this forum has declined in the going on three years that the blueprints have been removed. now adays it is just rumor. why can't the new blueprints be permanently added the day of reveal. I think glen and them are deliberately holding the blueprints back to write a book. Let me answer your comments one at a time.I think that a great number of questions rise here on the forums because the blueprints have been all but abandon. The Blueprints HAVE NOT been abandon and are alive and well at IForgeIron > Forum > pages > blueprints. There are currently about 260 +/- on line, the original series, the 100 series and the 1000 series. as far as I can tell the blueprints have been all but abandoned except on tuesday at 9 oclock central standard time. See the paragraph above, the Blueprints HAVE NOT been abandon, The Blueprints have always been presented on a Tuesday evening at 10 PM eastern time US. There have always been at least two Blueprints presented and more is the material is available. The presentation is the final step in the assembly of a Blueprint. We take the comments and add them back into the Blueprint material to make a better and more complete article. The Blueprint is then reworked and recoded, and added to the site.Too be honest this forum has declined in the going on three years that the blueprints have been removed. now adays it is just rumor. See the paragraph above, the Blueprints HAVE NOT been removed but in fact more are being added. The Blueprints are on line, see the paragraph(s) above. There is no rumor unless you start one. why can't the new blueprints be permanently added the day of reveal. See the paragraph above. The presentation is the final step in the assembly of a Blueprint. We take the comments and add them back into the Blueprint material to make a better and more complete article. The Blueprint is then reworked and recoded, and added to the site. It is not something that can be done between 11 pm, the time the Blueprint presentation ends, and 7 am the following morning when I need to get up for work. I do require some sleep in order to function at my job. Many times additional material becomes available and that specific Blueprint is located and opened so the new material can be added to the existing Blueprint. The Blueprints are continually being improved so the viewer gets a complete, up to date, presentation on the subject. This also takes time.I think glen and them are deliberately holding the blueprints back to write a book. This was suggested at the beginning, when the Blueprints were started some 10 years ago. Now that I have answered your questions, let me make some of my own comments. in case you missed the memo. IForgeIron is run by TWO (2) people, Glenn and Andrew, the site administrators. You joined the site in 2008 so you know that December a year ago that we changed servers in order to better serve the blacksmithing community. We spent 3 days during the Christmas holidays and rebuilt the entire IForgeIron site on the new server. It took another 3-1/2 MONTHS to rebuild the major portion of the Blueprints section of the site as each Blueprint had to be manually recoded into the new format. We then went back through the entire Blueprint section to chase down each and every piece of information that had been presented to be sure we had the full list. That process continues as time allows. It has been posted before but I feel it needs to be said again. Two Blueprints have been presented each week without fail since they were started almost 10 years ago. During that time the Blueprints have been presented without a single miss, in spite of injury, illness, the flu, pneumonia, double pneumonia, being out of town, computer failures, Internet outages and server crashes. It was well known that Tuesday 9 to 11 pm I am not available for phone calls, visitors, friends or family. If there was a problem, deal with it and let me know after 11 pm. One Tuesday night there was a knock at the door. My son came in and apologized for the interruption but he had been injured from a bicycle wreck. I looked at the injury and ask him to sit beside me, apply pressure to the wound, and bleed slowly, as I needed ten more minutes to finish the blueprint presentation before we could leave for the hospital. He came back home with 8 or 9 stitches to close the gash in his leg. This is my dedication to the Blueprints and getting them on line. Maybe it is time you gave back and contributed to the site. Edited March 3, 2012 by Moderator42 typo correction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmall Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Glenn, thanks for all you work. I am relatively new to the site, but I depend on IforgeIron to answer my questions. I use the search function extensively, and spend much time reading the responses. I often go back and reread them when I run into a similar problem. I have a number of blacksmithing and forging books and refer to them often as well. IforgeIron is another tool in the toolbox for me to learn this sport of Blacksmithing. I appreciate everyone's sharing of knowledge and help. I have asked questions when I could not find a suitable response after searching and they have been answered quickly and effectively. As to Mr. Turley's quote above, I am reminded of Kwai Chan Kang (david carradine's character on Kung Fu) who said "I seek not to know all the answers, simply to understand the questions." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foo Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Too be honest this forum has declined in the going on three years that the blueprints have been removed. now adays it is just rumor... It's a rumor. I Forge Iron now pushes out over 2,500,000 pageviews a month, which requires more focus on the technical end. After last night, we'll be refocusing on the Blueprints soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Seelye Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 First, Thanks to all who have responded to this. We all share one and maybe more common interests. I teach welding part time, I have students that love it, some that like it, some that their High School guidance councilors have told them they don't fit anywhere else so "take a welding class", some that try before being taught, some that actually read the book, some that ask questions and some that don't (from a previous post, I laughed at the "Peeing on the fence"). We are being added to daily. Some of us in the blacksmith world are teachers, some are visual learners, some read the books and some who are here but have only lurked for years, some of us are impatient, and some have the patience of Job. Some of you have answered questions, some haven't. I try and respond to intelligent questions in my class, and try to reformat a bad question into a good question that can help instill a desire in the student (some don't even know the right question to ask). A rude response, even to a bad question never really helps the learner, but it teaches the rest of us a lot about you. If you don't like the question, leave it alone. We have blacksmith lovers and likers here. The word that I appreciate is "meta-cognition" (taking charge of our own education). I am driven to learn. Some are not and I can deal with that. Lets not change that. Lets give newbies a chance, lets help them to see this is not a "one day course and you're good for life". I value and repect all of you on this site. I have learned how to format a question so I get the best response. I have asked dumb questions. I have thick skin. Bless you all. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 jeff what a mellow post :) you also bring up a very important point that we all learn in different ways, and for some it is easier to learn from the written word than others. this does not mean they are of lesser brains or are being rude... i personally find it very hard and pretty abstract to learn from written instructions, and it can take ages for the penny to drop. sometimes i have to ask over and over again, whilst everyone else appears to have got it, i STILL havnt. this is not because of total lack of brains or lack of real interest, or not paying attention, on the contrary, its to do with the format, its much easier for me if someone Shows me then i Try it myself, i am a kinesthetic learner... if it becomes concrete and real in my hands it is very much easier. thats hard on a forum :) but this forum is often the only option i and many of us have. that is why i value those who do find it easy to quickly understand written instructions, when they find the patience to explain in a few different ways to the likes of me ! :) the real gems are those that can keep telling you in different ways till you get it. these people are Pure Gold :) and to be aspired to!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loneforge Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I am new to this craft and also this site. I have had a million questions answered here. By some of the members and by reading the forums and checking out BP's. The more experienced guys here are awesome. It's in my opinion that when someone has questions for people don't come blank paged. I have had many failures as a new Smith and have received a lot of great advice here. Cheers to those who helped me out along the way. If you have never tried it don't ask how. I have shown the more experienced members here that respect and they have made my failures successes! I have learned a lot here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 Hey can we get back on track here?? I intended the thread to be about a person’s desire or capability to solve problems. Are they entitled to the solution or do they have a duty to try and solve it on their own with the information that is provided to them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmall Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Well, ciladog, I believe that everyone has a duty to solve problems on their own with the tools available. If we are speaking of hands on things like blacksmithing, this includes experience of others. I didn't learn to weld by reading about, or talking or asking about it. It was hands on, but I had a heads up to many of the pitfalls that beginner welders face. After I did it on my own for a bit, I got some experienced welders to look over my shoulder and guide me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robar Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Hey can we get back on track here?? I intended the thread to be about a person’s desire or capability to solve problems. Are they entitled to the solution or do they have a duty to try and solve it on their own with the information that is provided to them? No one except titled nobility or royalty is entitled to anything in this world. Even for them it is only because they say so and others listen! We all pretty much come here to learn, share or just for entertainment. I lurked for a while just reading before becoming a member. I don't have much to share as I am a rank amateur, but I read and learn. No one is entitled to information from another person, but I'm glad that so many people here share it willingly otherwise I may not even be in it at the hobby level. Thanks to you all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erietuna Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I have no right to know what you know. You earned it. I am really new at this. I drive to my club's open forge night just to have the chance to see people do thing's I would never dream about. At first I was overwhelmed by what I was seeing. Now they are starting to slow down for me. Or am I catching on a little? The best night's are when they make me think for myself. Just baby stuff to most real blacksmith's I am sure, but for me it is HUGE! My third night I made a dinner bell triangle. They said how was I going to hang it? So for awile I thought about it and came up with a idea. Jason ( who is a real blacksmith) said ok. He took another piece of metal hammered it flat, punched a hole. Then he held my piece while I punched a hole. Now my wife has a dinner bell. While it is nowhere as nice as other dinner bell's, it is my dinner bell. I was running the bandsaw. The blade popped off. Ralph asked Gary to help me. Gary walked by and said good luck. Took a minute and I got it back on. I was giggling the whole time. I earned it. erietuna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 erietuna I think you get what I'm after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 find out why the metal's soft when it's hot; why does it change color; why can we weld without melting the pieces together; and what is flux all about? And on reading this I suddenly realised I cannot really answer those questions. I've done lots of spot-,arc-, mig-, oxy-acetylene- , some (not very good) forge welding and even some tig welding, but just having done it doesn't mean that I am an expert or know the theory or are able to teach. But I am glad that there are people like Glen and Andrew, who are willing to do all the schlep of the hard work that making and keeping a website like this up and running. And quite probably most of us will never get a glimpse of the time involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I find one of the best ways to realize what you do or dont know about smithing, or anything else for that matter is to try to teach someone else what you think you know. Teaching is a great form of learning. Up to a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Davies Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 There's a phrase that gets used in med school: "See one, do one, teach one" I think that's a pretty good strategy. Colin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 cila - the thing is, if the person in question is being a waste of time in some way (this caricature obnoxious Youth :) ) then they most certainly will not benefit from being given any solutions - but that should make no odds to the giver of the solution - it should be done with a generous spirit or not at all, and as for Entitlement, that really has nothing to do with anything, its a silly concept, i would have thought :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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