Thumbs Up, Thumbs Down

[stuarthesmith]

I remember watching the movie Gladiator, in which Maximus beat the daylights out of the champion gladiator Titius of Gaul. When the Emporer Commidus had to make the choice, as to whether to slay the vanquished Titius, he signaled "thumbs down", ordering Maximus to slay the loser. Instead of killing him, Maximus tossed aside his sword, occasioning someone in the forum to yell "Maximus the Merciful"

I feel like General Maximus in THIS FORUM. When the Emporer Glenn signaled, in my thread on blacksmithing for the general public at the New York State Fair in Syracuse, the other day, he signaled "thumbs down" as far as hand position when swinging a blacksmith's hammer. General Stuart Maximus, instead, insists on "thumbs up" when swinging a hammer. I detailed the reasons why in response in that thread.

As a humorous sidenote, while I was serving my apprenticeship, the russian who trained me had zero compunction regarding HITTING my right hand with a four pound ball pein hammer if I held the hammer wrong, with my thumb wrapped around the hammer handle. It was HIS WAY, or the highway. He told me that if I was his son, had I held the hammer wrong, he would have denied me my dinner that night. I had a choice, either hammer correctly with my thumb atop the hammer handle, leaving NO hammer marks, or getting corporal punishment from a 74 year old man and suffering even worse, his scorn and wrath.

[macbruce]

Tomato tomada, potato patada.....Lets call the whole thing off............I agree to disagree... :D

[Larry H]

A few of the 5th generation Master smiths I've had the honor of working with told me tales similar about their fathers and grandfathers,....lucky for me they didn't pick up those habits......but they had their own way of showing disapproval. Needless to say, you actually yearned for them to be pleased with your work. Finally after working with one of them for fifteen years I over heard someone ask him .." so hows that guy working out ? " he replied " him ? he's a pretty good " I almost fainted,...I still feel good about that today..... 16 yrs. later. So I know a little something about relating to a Master. By the way.....When he was doing finish work, his thumb was on top of the handle.

[stuarthesmith]

Fyodor Czub, the man under whom I apprenticed for five years, told me, after a year, through a translator, that I was the fifth apprentice candidate he had worked with in succession, in order to train someone to take over his work in the plant. He told me that all the others that preceded me didn't know enough to keep their mouths shut, and emulate him and his work. My self-pride(some would say arrogance) wouldn't allow me to fail; I was determined, through my work and PRACTiCE, to impress him and prove that an American could be a worthy student of his. Morally, I was always old school, and had inculcated upon me at an early age by my father that workmanship was an honorable thing, and that God gave us two eyes and two ears, and only one mouth, for a reason, we should listen and watch twice as much as we TALK.

[Larry H]

Pasquale Noto...Rip,..Gussipie Tyrone.........Jimmy Curtin,....now in his 90's
they were like magicians of metal

[stuarthesmith]

My mentor died in 1996, exactly 15 years after I served my apprenticeship..............he was very generous in gladly transfering his knowledge, without reservation, to me.

[stuarthesmith]

He and I worked in a tool forging shop, a subsidiary of AMerican Hoist and Derrick. He would speed up our work so that at the end of the day, he could teach me how to forge fancy doorlatches, strap hinges, and all manner of other interesting forgings having NOTHING to do with the work we were being paid to do. He derived great pleasure teaching me anything he could.

[Frank Turley]

The idea is to pick up certain habits that the master thought valuable. I was taught to wrap thumb around. In fact, there is a funny drawing in Ernst Schwarzkopf's book showing a HUGE THUMB, OVERLY LONG, wrapped around the haft. One of my teachers made us clean anvil scale AFTER EVERY HEAT. He also had us put the hammer on the anvil with the working face or peen facing the hot work when we picked it up. For a right hander, if the hardie was to be used, the hammer went to the right of it, face facing the hardie. If we were going to the horn, the hammer face was near the anvil step facing the horn (obliquely).

As to never leaving hammer marks, you gotta' show me; I'm from Missouri. One light swipe with a sanding disc usually shows a multitude of marks that were hiding under the scale.

My old Okie friend used to say, "You can get used to anything. You can get used to hanging if you hang long enough."

[stuarthesmith]

my finishing strokes remove two things, hammer marks and all doubt

[stuarthesmith]

I used to "play" at forging pattern welded bowie knives. Much easier to grind if they lack hammer impressions.

[Steve Sells]

funny but the real historical record shows 'thumbs down' meant to place the sword in the ground and spare them. The kill motion was more of a drawing of the thumb across the throat. Just a FYI from someone that reads way too much

[stuarthesmith]

wow, steve, that is an incredible piece of information.....................you mean maximus misunderstood commidus's verdict?

[ThomasPowers]

No---*Hollywood* did! (as usual...)

[Old N Rusty]

I problably got it all wrong as i only had tools and books to teach me. My hammer technique is to use ALL the stick, so the end of the handle makes a nice callus on my palm. Thumb up, seem to lock my wrist. I want a smooth hit starting way up on the arm and a slinging snap on contact and I am trying to loosen my grip without losing control , many years of bad habits ARE hard to break I always gripped it hard till hand cramps forced me to re-think it. If it hurts, you are doing it wrong.

[Glenn]

Place the hammer on the face of the anvil horn to heel.

Grab onto the handle thumb on the top of the handle and push. You will stress the wrist, arm and shoulder.
Grab onto the handle thumb wrapped around the handle. Your wrist will bend.
Grab onto the handle as you would hold a piece of paper vertically between the thumb and fingerprints. The handle rotates.

Tell me which is easier on your body after 10K hits.

Stew, just trying to make things easier for you. You are a great example to others that should be taught how not to harm their body while forging.

[Larry H]

Stewart you are a professional smith....right ? for many years....right ? A professional tool makin' smith. I have found that many weekend "smiths" learn from one person or books, they think with tunnel vision. I, like you learned long ago one Master smith pounded into my head "if you have to grind it or take a file to it you didn't forge it good enough "

[JimsShip]

I've only had a few classes to teach me and spark my interest in this hobby, and I left with a throbbing blister on my thumb. I wasn't even aware I was holding the hammer wrong, so lesson learned.
As far as hammer marks, as an amateur I'm still making simple projects and the hammer marks give them a more hand crafted look. (at least that's what I'm telling myself!)

[Tom Allyn]

I can't speak specifically to blacksmithing because I've only been doing it for a short time. But I've been swinging hammers as a carpenter for 30 years. For most work it's thumbs down. But occasionally I grip thumbs up, usually for some special controlled work.

Sometimes when driving a nail in a tight place I'll take a regular swing but then put a little twist on the hammer head just before it strikes the nail. You can use a swing that isn't in line with the nail. I liken it to putting 'English' on the cue ball in billiards. May not be applicable to blacksmithing but it sure comes in handy in carpentry.

[Old N Rusty]

are you the carpenter with black thumbnails on BOTH hands?

[Tom Allyn]

I have blackened a few nails in my time. One thing, as a carpenter gains experience the blackened nails become rarer. But it's usually worse when they do occur.

[Old N Rusty]

I respect a good craftsPERSON (see PC !). If you dig with a shovel,make it your art, do your best! Lay a brick , know it is right , true and square. bring your grandkids around and say "I built that wall". We who do work with our hands, must be at our best, or it shows in our product. This thread is about refining the technique of hammering. It should help those of us who have been at it a while get better, and show the beginner a way to sidestep the errors, and forge ahead. Do what feels right for you, just remember hold the wood bit, and hit the metal bit on the hot iron.

[Francis Trez Cole]

when I did my study on hammering I found that many people do it both ways. The problem with the thumb on top is the nerve that runs from the thumb maybe getting hit in the hand with a ball peen hammer all those years short circuited the nerve. It does not mean it is good for your body. I have seen more than a few farriers put there thumb on top maybe they need more control they usually use a hammer with a light head and a long handle. You can see a shape of the thumb that fits the job maybe your body adjust.

When teaching cooking I had a student who cut the end of a ham off before putting it in a pan I asked her why she did it, thats the way my mother did it. So when she went home for the holidays I gave her an assignment to ask her mother why she did it. The answer was simple her mother learned it from her mother and the grand mother did it because the pan she had was too small and it was the only the roast wound fit. Not that it was right way to do it when you have the right tools.

I have seen many pictures of Philip Simmons his hammer of choice was a ball peen its what he started with and was comfortable using. People use what they have and what they are tough to use.

[stuarthesmith]

for 34 years, with "thumbs up", I have never been injured, except for scale burns on my right forearm. Some other smiths I know occasionally complain to me about elbow tendonitis, using thumbs up. I have never suffered from such an affliction. Everyone reacts differently to stresses put on the body. What I do know for sure, is that you get better angle control with the thumb up..........and after all, this is all about hammer control. Because I forge tools, mostly edged tools like cooper's drawknives, slate shingle rippers, and other cutting tools, lack of hammermarks makes grinding a pleasure, and not torture. This is why the russian who taught me stressed hammer control, hammermarks are a pain in the derriere to grind out. That control gained by "thumbs up" also makes repetitive work more uniform, when forging 20 shingle rippers in a day and then doing the final grinding, you want every last one of them to be exactly the same as the previous one you forge. This is also why I wrote the article on using vise-mounted bending forks to bend with, rather than hammering shapes over an anvil horn, it eliminates those HATED hammer-marks and flat spots, facillitating much cleaner looking bends.

[Francis Trez Cole]

Stewartthesmith you should make a video I would like to see your method of hammering.

[ThomasPowers]

Angle control Would a rectangular handle allow for more angle control thumbs down or are you referring to pitch rather than roll?