utaholdiron Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 While trying to remove the blower blade assembly I managed to bend one of the blower gears! Here's how: I stuck the screwdriver handle into an opening on the gear and proceeded to try to loosen the nut holding the blades. I didn't push very hard, but did manage to bend the gear the screwdriver was in. The gear with the red markings. Now the blower "locks up" when I turn the crank. I want to remove the gear and see if it can be straightened. There's a two-sided nut on each end of the gear housing, but I don't have the right tool to loosen them. For future reference, does anyone know the correct way to remove that nut on the blade assembly. I already know the INCORRECT way! I like this unit, and have $200+ into it so far, but if I can't fix that gear I'll have to scrap the project. Any suggestions will be appreciated. I replaced the forge pan with a heavier gauge metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utaholdiron Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 If, by chance, anyone out there has this size gear, I'd we willing to buy it. Is there anyplace on the internet that has miscellaneous parts for forge blowers? I have several other Champion blowers but they aren't the same size as this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I don`t see having to scrap it.If it can be bent out of shape it can be bent back.Look it over and decide how and where it was bent and and then apply an equal force in the opposite direction being careful to NOT press against any of the cast iron parts like the housing. I`d try to figure out a way to bend it back as is before I tried to take it apart.See if the a magnet is attracted to that different colored gear,if not then it`s most likely made of brass or bronze and will bend back fairly easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I just went through this with my champion 400. I had the same issue with getting the fan jamb nut off. I didn't bend my gear though... Gentle!!! Its brass or bronze! As far as getting the centering nuts off the gear shaft- try a crescent or vice grips, again gentle, and use another wrench across the jaws of the one on the nut to turn it. Mine has holes for a pin spanner. Adjusting the location of the gear may make it run smooth again.... Mine responded well to just fiddling around with the adjustments until I found the sweet spot. Now it turns like a dream.... Just a warning- the upper gears on mine are all race bearing while the worm gear on the fan blade shaft has loose bearings. These blowers are made to be taken apart and adjusted. Go slow and be gentle. If you have to force it, that may not be the correct way to go about it. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utaholdiron Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 I don`t see having to scrap it.If it can be bent out of shape it can be bent back.Look it over and decide how and where it was bent and and then apply an equal force in the opposite direction being careful to NOT press against any of the cast iron parts like the housing. I`d try to figure out a way to bend it back as is before I tried to take it apart.See if the a magnet is attracted to that different colored gear,if not then it`s most likely made of brass or bronze and will bend back fairly easily. Bob, thanks for the input. I like your optimism and advice about working around cast iron. For me, taking that gear out will be a last resort. I'm thinking of using a metal "backer" on the concave side of the bend and clinching it with a large C-clamp. That should allow me to use gradual force and not end up bending it too far. A magnet is not attracted to the gear. I appreciate the advice, Alan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utaholdiron Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 I just went through this with my champion 400. I had the same issue with getting the fan jamb nut off. I didn't bend my gear though... Gentle!!! Its brass or bronze! As far as getting the centering nuts off the gear shaft- try a crescent or vice grips, again gentle, and use another wrench across the jaws of the one on the nut to turn it. Mine has holes for a pin spanner. Adjusting the location of the gear may make it run smooth again.... Mine responded well to just fiddling around with the adjustments until I found the sweet spot. Now it turns like a dream.... Just a warning- the upper gears on mine are all race bearing while the worm gear on the fan blade shaft has loose bearings. These blowers are made to be taken apart and adjusted. Go slow and be gentle. If you have to force it, that may not be the correct way to go about it. Good luck! Thanks for the input. I have a Champion 400 blower that needs some adjusting, your info will help. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverker Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 I'm trying to remove the fan on this same blower, but having no luck whats so ever. Does the jamb nut twist off? Right hand or left hand threads? Not wanting to bend/break anything, I figured I would ask first. The reason I'm trying to get it off is the seal behind the fan leaks badly. Could I pack with grease, or is oil the way to go? Any other thing that might be helpful with this is appreciated. Thank you for your help in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob S Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 I'm trying to remove the fan on this same blower, but having no luck whats so ever. Does the jamb nut twist off? Right hand or left hand threads? Not wanting to bend/break anything, I figured I would ask first. The reason I'm trying to get it off is the seal behind the fan leaks badly. Could I pack with grease, or is oil the way to go? Any other thing that might be helpful with this is appreciated. Thank you for your help in advance. these blowers run at low rpm. They really don't need to run in a case filled with oil. A squirt now and then will be fine. imo if it works don't fix it. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob S Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 While trying to remove the blower blade assembly I managed to bend one of the One "rule" that has served me well is 'if it wasn't put together with a hammer, don't take it apart with a hammer'. Good luck with your blower. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrous Beuler Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Hey utah, I have the same problem. When I bought my 400 the man I got it from also gave me a second one for free. One is complete and operating and the second one is mostly disassembled, a bucket full of parts. It's all there but I've never put it together because I have the other that runs like a champion (I think I just made a funny?) and the disassembled one has a slight bend in that same gear. It is bronze. I think what likely happened is the guy had it apart to clean everything and probably stepped on it. To the naked eye the bend can't be seen but put it in a set of V blocks and spin it and it wobbles ever so slightly like a bent bicycle rim. He told me it would lock up if I tried to assemble it and run it so I think he tried and gave up on it. Apparently a little bend goes a long way with one of these. It must run true or the teeth will get chewed because the other gear it runs against is steel, I think. When I first got mine it had motor oil in it, I think, not sure, fairly heavy oil to which graphite had been added. He gave me a little bottle of that too, the oil with the graphite in it. It worked fine that way for me for two years, what did a noob like me know? Quite a while later I saw a thread on here about what sort of oil to run in these blowers. Most recommended lighter was better. If you've got hypoid gear oil in there you aren't doing yourself any favors, not that it's going to hurt anything. After reading that thread I cleaned mine out real well and ran ATF. A world of difference! Thicker oil just gums things up and slows it down. I knew mine was "slow" because I had seen other people's 400's and they seemed to run much smoother than mine, with "glide" that just went on and on after you let go of the handle. Mine didn't do that, the glide went around maybe once before coming to a stop. I just figured mine was worn and I didn't want to monkey with it and wind up with two dead blowers. After I cleaned out all the old gunk and put in the ATF I suddenly had a silky smooth blower with that glide that keeps on coasting on its own. The difference was like night & day. You don't have to fill it to the gills, just enough so that the lower moving parts are running in oil. It will splash around in there and lube the whole works. If you do over fill it you will know by the puddle. It's not ever going to completely go away either, they all leak at the fan shaft so because yours does too doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it. Like I said, I haven't tried to fix mine yet because of having the good one that runs. Your thread piqued my interest though and now I want to get into fixing it. I'm not sure how to go about isolating the web part, the inner part between the shaft and the outside rim. That thinner web part is what is bent on mine. It is only about 1/8" thick and the outer rim with the gear teeth machined into it is a lot thicker, 1/2" maybe. I think what I'll do is place the shaft in the hardie hole on the anvil so the rim is lying flat on the face. I'll have to identify the high spot and gently drive it down with light blows. I think a section of broom stick for a drift would be a good idea. Part of me wants to put some heat to it first but being that it is bronze makes me leery because I'll have no way of knowing how much is too much and I don't have any torches so I'm going to do it cold. I'll let you know tomorrow if it works out for me or if I've ruined it. If I kill mine by doing it cold you might want to try another approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrous Beuler Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 I Started working on the gear today before I had to attend to honey-do's. I got it mostly straightened out. Amazing how soft the bronze actually is. I could see how one side of the webbing area between the shaft and outside rim was raised up a bit and the opposite side sagged, with the gear on its side, shaft in the pritchel hole. I tapped down on the high spots with a wood drift and rawhide mallet, flipped it over and did the same. It flattened right out no problem. The gear still wobbled. I was hoping it was limited to the webbing part, causing the shaft to be off center but the rim is bent too. I simply identified the high side, as it sat on the anvil. I could see one side of the rim almost touched the face while the other side was a good 1/8" higher. I put it in the post vice and rapped it gently on the rim with the rawhide mallet, -gently- it is very soft stuff and got it a lot closer to true but that's when I got interrupted and hauled off on much much more important stuff (bridesmaid dresses,shoes and all sorts of happy hoo-ya). Back at it tomorrow. Once I get it right I'll clean up all the parts of that blower and post a picture heavy run down with an exploded view with all the parts and document the assembly process. I don't think that exists here yet on IFI concerning the Champion blowers. Yours may be some other model than a 400, judging by the smaller fan but it looks to have the same guts. I'm not sure but I think Champion had several models with the same gear box but different size fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yance Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Just a warning- the upper gears on mine are all race bearing while the worm gear on the fan blade shaft has loose bearings. These blowers are made to be taken apart and adjusted. Go slow and be gentle. If you have to force it, that may not be the correct way to go about it. Good luck! As I found out those loose bearings are .250" diameter. I spent a LOT of time searching for loose bearings to replace three that were missing from my first 400 only to find by "accident" that the ones in the castors on the front end of a standard grocery cart are perfect replacements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Hi guys! I just completed a blower clean and adjust project. It is the small one like pictured in the top post (eight inch fan on a 401 forge) I could not remove the fan from the shaft! I pulled the locking nut off (impact gun and 1" deep-well.... right handed threads) but no way to remove the fan. The fan hub is threaded onto the shaft. I made a socket that will fit over the hub of the fan and I used an impact gun to knock it loose. Worked perfect. I really need to patent these!!!! Once you have the fan off, the dust cover comes off, then there is a backing nut behind that. It locates the fan/dust cover on the shaft. Then the threaded cap is removed from the gear case to expose the bearing balls and the adj cone. Don't mess with tryuing to remove that cone and it's locking nut. It's really simple............remove the REAR bearing locking nut and cone. Drop out the bearings here (eleven of them) and then pull the shaft from the front. The front bearings (thirteen balls) will follow. To get a damaged part, one would have to buy another gear case. I HAVE seem them on e-bay (gear case only) and all the 400 gear cases are the same for the most part. Some very slight differences. The fan shaft willnot hold oil. if you look at the shaft, one would soon discover why............. That shaft is THREADED and, it has a key-way groove cut into it. Little wonder it won't seal oil. Here is a link to a guy who rebuilds these. I dissassemble them differently than he does. He fights with that fron bearing locking nut and cone while inside the case. I don't like to. I remove the rear most bearing as it is much easier to do so. http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/help-please-champion-blower-113740/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 From my findings, these gear case blowers (400) are 8,10,12 and 14 inch. There is a CD repoduction of the original catalog from Champion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 As I found out those loose bearings are .250" diameter. I spent a LOT of time searching for loose bearings to replace three that were missing from my first 400 only to find by "accident" that the ones in the castors on the front end of a standard grocery cart are perfect replacements. Thanks- That goes into the dusty memory... Hopefully I never have to replace any,If I do, I'll know where to look B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utaholdiron Posted May 20, 2011 Author Share Posted May 20, 2011 Hi guys! I just completed a blower clean and adjust project. It is the small one like pictured in the top post (eight inch fan on a 401 forge) I could not remove the fan from the shaft! I pulled the locking nut off (impact gun and 1" deep-well.... right handed threads) but no way to remove the fan. The fan hub is threaded onto the shaft. I made a socket that will fit over the hub of the fan and I used an impact gun to knock it loose. Worked perfect. I really need to patent these!!!! Once you have the fan off, the dust cover comes off, then there is a backing nut behind that. It locates the fan/dust cover on the shaft. Then the threaded cap is removed from the gear case to expose the bearing balls and the adj cone. Don't mess with tryuing to remove that cone and it's locking nut. It's really simple............remove the REAR bearing locking nut and cone. Drop out the bearings here (eleven of them) and then pull the shaft from the front. The front bearings (thirteen balls) will follow. To get a damaged part, one would have to buy another gear case. I HAVE seem them on e-bay (gear case only) and all the 400 gear cases are the same for the most part. Some very slight differences. The fan shaft willnot hold oil. if you look at the shaft, one would soon discover why............. That shaft is THREADED and, it has a key-way groove cut into it. Little wonder it won't seal oil. Here is a link to a guy who rebuilds these. I dissassemble them differently than he does. He fights with that fron bearing locking nut and cone while inside the case. I don't like to. I remove the rear most bearing as it is much easier to do so. http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/help-please-champion-blower-113740/ Thanks for the input. I like your idea. My problem is I can't find a socket wrench deep enough to take off the backing nut that is behind the blower housing. The "deep socket" wrenches at all the major outlets are 3" in length, and I need one that's another 1/2" deeper. I'm thinking of cutting a deep socket off with a chop saw, so it will fit onto the nut and then using a pipe wrench on the other end of it to loosen the nut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Thanks for the input. I like your idea. My problem is I can't find a socket wrench deep enough to take off the backing nut that is behind the blower housing. The "deep socket" wrenches at all the major outlets are 3" in length, and I need one that's another 1/2" deeper. I'm thinking of cutting a deep socket off with a chop saw, so it will fit onto the nut and then using a pipe wrench on the other end of it to loosen the nut. Sounds like the hard way to get a box end wrench to me! Does it REALLY need to come apart? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Perhaps you could *forge* one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 What I was explaining was the fact you don't need one. Leave it alone. Pull the fan then the REAR bearings. Pull the shaft out the FRONT and you won't need to mess with that 3 1/2 deep socket you can't find. That works well, unless I missed something in your description. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleD Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 This all sounds like valuable information. I recently purchased a 400 that has a LOT of play at the fan and sounds horrible. I guess I'm gonna have to attempt replacing the bearings behind the fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo7 Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Adjust it first, unless you've lost the bearings they are probably good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironmike Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 If you want to make a longer socket, take your chopsaw and cut the drive end off of the socket, and using a piece of tubing same diameter as a socket cut the tubing the length you want the socket and weld back together I also suggest using a 6 point socket,I make a lot of specialty tools this way Ironmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironmike Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 A good source for these type of tools that you're going to modify is Harbor Freight because you don't feel bad about chopping them up, But I have been known to use a snap-on when I have been in a bind and need to get the job done. Ironmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleD Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 My shaft moves 3/16 of an inch at the fan and sounds like a coffee can with rocks in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleD Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 My shaft moves 3/16 of an inch at the fan and sounds like a coffee can with rocks in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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