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tong making jig


youngdylan

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On 8/1/2010 at 9:25 PM, monstermetal said:

I was at Johns shop yesterday and stole the jig in the video and got to see the bolt tong tool. I'll post some pictures once I have my copy built

Xxxxxx thieving blacksmiths! I turned my back, after having provided my exalted guest with some good single malt scotch, and the jig was gone. Now, he'll probably come up with some jig that is self forging. Good thing I didn't show him the updated, modified version. :)
JE

 

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Clifton Ralph showed making a jig similar to this for bolt tongs (although I think I sketched the handles on the wrong side since IIRC they are perpendicular to the dies). I made a set of these many years ago after his power hammer tapes were released but had problems controlling one good hit on my power hammer because the workpiece tended to bounce and move off center; I believe a fly press would have been better for a controlled "squish".

tong pic.doc

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Clifton Ralph showed making a jig similar to this for bolt tongs (although I think I sketched the handles on the wrong side since IIRC they are perpendicular to the dies). I made a set of these many years ago after his power hammer tapes were released but had problems controlling one good hit on my power hammer because the workpiece tended to bounce and move off center; I believe a fly press would have been better for a controlled "squish".



Having not seen Clifton's idea, that general idea is pretty much what I came up with also. The amount of mass allowed for on the working end of the tongs after the initial forging requires some experimentation, but his concept is solid. Thanks for posting it. I'm sure tong makers with much more acumen than me had this figured out a long time ago. I just like the process of figuring out how to do things with the resources at hand. That's the beauty of blacksmithing.

John
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Clifton Ralph showed making a jig similar to this for bolt tongs (although I think I sketched the handles on the wrong side since IIRC they are perpendicular to the dies). I made a set of these many years ago after his power hammer tapes were released but had problems controlling one good hit on my power hammer because the workpiece tended to bounce and move off center; I believe a fly press would have been better for a controlled "squish".



Thanks H.
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This is a great new section (toolmaking). Very impressive thread here.This is a very efficient process and high end thinking and equipment involved. There is also the other extreme, which I use, only because I don't have the equipment. Maybe not the capacity for high end thinking eithercool.gif If you have a bucket of old tongs accumulated one way or another, it is quite efficent also to heat the jaws and joint area and resize and/or reshape to do new things with old tongs. Also it is very satisfying to me to hand hammer new ones into what I want but at a little different pace than the videos of course.rolleyes.gif

Anvillain

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Yeah I'm quite a fan of bolt on dies but agree with Grant that dovetails are the securest way of fixing them. Bolt ons are great when you want to a quickie or experiment. I guess I've got the best of bothworlds: 2 bolt on Kinyons and an Anyang with dovetails. Still could do with something in the 2cwt range with big flat dies ..... could also do with that 30t screw press of yours ...... and an acorn table ..... and an indu ........AND MORE ROOM


I would be tempted to do something like this for short runs or for myself. Ya gotta be able to justify the work and cost of dedicated dies. "Appropriate" technology for the work at hand, there is no "best"!

Great video John, how come it's not on YOUR NWBA site too?
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This is a great new section (toolmaking). Very impressive thread here.This is a very efficient process and high end thinking and equipment involved. There is also the other extreme, which I use, only because I don't have the equipment. Maybe not the capacity for high end thinking eithercool.gif If you have a bucket of old tongs accumulated one way or another, it is quite efficent also to heat the jaws and joint area and resize and/or reshape to do new things with old tongs. Also it is very satisfying to me to hand hammer new ones into what I want but at a little different pace than the videos of course.rolleyes.gif

Anvillain



Before this jig that was usually my approach, modify existing tongs. Either resahpe the jaws ....... or mig weld bits onto the jaws.
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i wonder if a jug like this would work welded to a plate to be fitted into the hardy and then hit by a striker, or would that be too much stress for the hardy?



I think it proabley would. I use the jig on my 25kg Kinyon and its not used at full tilt when shaping the jaws. I use the 40kg Anyang for drawing the reins. I guess it depends on how heavy your anvil is. I've got a 200kg Brooks and would quite happily use it. Make sure the "business" side of the jig is on the "anvil" side of the hardy.
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i wonder if a jug like this would work welded to a plate to be fitted into the hardy and then hit by a striker, or would that be too much stress for the hardy?


I think it might be too much stress on your striker ;) Many of the limiting blocks built into the jig wouldn't function as neatly with a sledgehammer. I think the flippy thing for forming the offset in the first step could be a handy anvil tool. IMO the rest could be done the traditional way over the edge of the anvil just as easily as with a tool.

Also, in hand-forging tongs I was taught to hold the tong(?) at a 45 deg. angle in the second step (jaws off the far edge, eye being flattened) so that the shoulder of the horizontal jaw material would extend back into the vertical section of the eye. This almost doubles the cross section at the root of the jaw, one of the places where I have seen many tongs broken. It looks like this should work with the jig as well.
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I think it might be too much stress on your striker ;) Many of the limiting blocks built into the jig wouldn't function as neatly with a sledgehammer. I think the flippy thing for forming the offset in the first step could be a handy anvil tool. IMO the rest could be done the traditional way over the edge of the anvil just as easily as with a tool.

Also, in hand-forging tongs I was taught to hold the tong(?) at a 45 deg. angle in the second step (jaws off the far edge, eye being flattened) so that the shoulder of the horizontal jaw material would extend back into the vertical section of the eye. This almost doubles the cross section at the root of the jaw, one of the places where I have seen many tongs broken. It looks like this should work with the jig as well.


Yeah careful aim with a sledge hammer would be needed, maybe if there were two of you "at it" you could maybe use a flatter or wide set hammer.

45deg,can be done on the jig but I've just ended up doing it straight but pulling the eye a liitle further from the edge, doesn't weaken it too much

as fc says it's probably just as easy by hand but if you want consistantly accurate results for lots of tongs, it's great .... but then again if this were the case you'd probably have a power hammer
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I would be tempted to do something like this for short runs or for myself. Ya gotta be able to justify the work and cost of dedicated dies. "Appropriate" technology for the work at hand, there is no "best"!

Great video John, how come it's not on YOUR NWBA site too?



Grant,

You're the guru. Put a link on the site to YouTube.

JE
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Pics of the top and bottom dies for bolt tongs for my Saymak 60kg. Could be adapted to any hammer via a 4 post die setup working from the length of the dies. The "Monster" of metal has my jig, so I can't show the process. Blame him! :)
John


Thanks again John. Kinda busy for the next few weeks but thats one more to my ever growing "to do" list.
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