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H13 question


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That's what I like about H-13, it's very easy to heat treat by eye. Been doing it with great success for more than 30 years. Heat to 1950F (orange bordering on yellow) cool in front of a fan or in oil if you're feeling lucky. Oil gives better hardness and is usually safe on on a uniform part like a punch. Stay with air on a slitter. Let cool until a little more than warm to the touch. Draw at 950-1100 (a very wide window here) You can judge that very easily, it's the first black/red heat you can see holding the part in a nice dark shade. If you're gonna use it annealed, don't waste your money on tool steel that only has it's wonderful stated properties when heat treated. I used to punch around 800 holes a day around 1"D through 1" thick material. Punch rarely needed dressing.


I was given a nice piece of H-13 awhile back and haven't got around to making a slitter yet. Continue in detail just a bit more on the draw at 950-1100. How long should I keep the piece at that temperature? Or just after hitting that temperature just let it come down to room temp? Made plenty of center punches out of W-1 but never chisel types out of something like H-13. Thank you in advance! Spears. Sorry if I un-jacked this thread!
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Sorry to keep butting in here with technical stuff, but before we start throwing pot leaves into our salads or sprinkling rabbit pellets all over our ice cream I just have to ask a few questions.

If I forge down one side of a 3/4" bar of H-13 to a flat "corners rounded" slitting type chisel, would heat cycling help make a better tool? Supposing all I had to temper with was an oxy-act rose bud torch, would a short tempering time have satisfactory results if done out near just the chisel end? I've had ok results with some heat treat shortcuts but it was for punches and nail sets made from materials like W-1, O-1, 1095, but not H-13.

Some of those recipes sound like you folks are really into gourmet foods!

Regards, Spears.

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Don't worry about soak time, just get it to temp and let it cool down. "The book" is often talking about a large block so they leave it in the draw furnace for a long time. In industry a "tool" is often a couple cubic feet or more and weighs 1000 pounds.

Ask Frosty, I think he has "cubic feet"!

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I've seen threads hijacked before but this is one is a topper.
Topper for jalepeno & avocado ice cream? I'd try sour cream & pico de gallo. Serve it up in a cone folded from a nice corn tortilla.

As for soaking H13 or other high-alloy steels, the carbides need some time to dissolve into the austenite. Soak times listed on the data sheets are per inch. So if we've got a 3/16" thick slitting punch at 20-30 minutes per inch, we leave it at temp for 4 or 5 minutes.
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Thanks all of you for all your replies. I've done some short cuts in heat treating some very small pieces like worn out gun parts and had very good results. I do however try to keep up with times and temps like what's been done in a lab environment (like what the books say) because they usually have the equipment to "check it". As I lectured my students in Machine shop class; treat your measuring instruments kindly, it's your only ability to check it. The steel companies are making some pretty fantastic stuff these days. I have seen some tool making rather loosely done where the end result would out last the energizer bunny. I'm looking forward to building myself some hand tools for blacksmithing.

My stomach is rather fragile so I can't eat wild diet stuff like what some of you folks have come up with! Peace, and thanks again. Spears.

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Topper for jalepeno & avocado ice cream? I'd try sour cream & pico de gallo. Serve it up in a cone folded from a nice corn tortilla.

As for soaking H13 or other high-alloy steels, the carbides need some time to dissolve into the austenite. Soak times listed on the data sheets are per inch. So if we've got a 3/16" thick slitting punch at 20-30 minutes per inch, we leave it at temp for 4 or 5 minutes.


Eyeballing 5 minutes is possible as a soak time. Just pull the part for a few seconds, or adjust the blast of the forge.

Realistically though how important is getting maximum possible hardening all the way through a punch or chisel that is used by hand or under a smaller machine? I think this is what NakedAnvil is getting at.

I also keep forgetting that the data sheets are for a "standard" cross section (1 inch of what profile?) The standard cross section is not mentioned in most online data sheets adding to our (my) confusion

That sounds tasty!

Phil
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<snip>
I also keep forgetting that the data sheets are for a "standard" cross section (1 inch of what profile?) The standard cross section is not mentioned in most online data sheets adding to our (my) confusion
Phil


1 inch is 1 inch, its all about heat penetration, so carbon and carbides all can get into solution. 1 x 103 or 1 x 2 its got to get past that outer layer to heat through to the core :)
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1 inch is 1 inch, its all about heat penetration, so carbon and carbides all can get into solution. 1 x 103 or 1 x 2 its got to get past that outer layer to heat through to the core :)


The odd thing about this explanation, to me, is that Grant has pretty well persuaded me that steel is a pretty darned good conductor of heat, and that even in a large cross section there should, under normal circumstances, be minimal difference between interior and exterior temperature. I can't find the thread anymore, but Grant once cited some info on this that he found in a publication by Carpenter Tool Steel. Grant?

That said, are we absolutely sure that the times on the data sheets are "per inch"? The HT info I've seen (e.g., Crucible's recommendations for its own steels, on its website) doesn't say anything about that, and my understanding is that purpose of the soak is to get all the alloying elements into solution once the entire piece is up to temp.
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Don't worry about soak time, just get it to temp and let it cool down. "The book" is often talking about a large block so they leave it in the draw furnace for a long time. In industry a "tool" is often a couple cubic feet or more and weighs 1000 pounds.

Ask Frosty, I think he has "cubic feet"!


the shoes for the cubic feet disorder would be expensive?

i only let it soak, to soak, by that i mean when i think the heat has soaked through (or the piece is evenly heated i do the air thing then the temper in the oven and do the garlic bread. (with melted jarlsburg).
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Good point, but would the same reasoning still hold? (Maybe not, since rate of heat conduction depends in part on the differential. So tempering may move slower than austenitizing. I'm not sure.)


In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is. Never seemed to matter in practice. But if it was harder in the center, would it matter? Cracks always start from the outside.
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Steel is not as good a conductor as some like to think, remember, if not, how could we hold bare handed, the end of a 18 inch rod while forging the other end? that's because it does take some time to equalize the temps. Not long, but there is a time delay between getting the inner section as hot as the outer portion.

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Cracks always start from the outside.


I'm not sold on this statement, but I will agree that stress risers and surface defects are more likely to cause a crack to propagate than an internal fault, simply because an external fault can be created in so many different ways. Also from a bending point of view the surface has high stress levels while the center has low or no stresses.

Phil
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http://www.integritysteel.com/aisi-h13-hot-work-tool-steel.html

Note: When oil quenched, this grade is as vulnerable to cracking and has the same distortional characteristics as an oil hardening tool steel.

h13 is really tough and can still hold alot of its integrity at a red heat. I would not recommend quenching it and let it air cool. We have 2 tools to rotate through for the process.

I did some research a while back on H13 on Carpenter Steel website (very informative website-more info than I needed) and it said that you can cool H13 in water in use and it will not harm the material.



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I did some research a while back on H13 on Carpenter Steel website (very informative website-more info than I needed) and it said that you can cool H13 in water in use and it will not harm the material.
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No micro cracking?
I had heard some air hardening steel shouldn`t be cooled in water even when grinding because of this.The micro cracking would cause the edge to fail more quickly.This could be a problem with things like chisels and drifts.
I know that M2 has this problem and some of the other steels like the A and D were supposed to be prone to this too.
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