13 replies to this topic

[Toreus]

Hey everyone,

First time blacksmith in Winnipeg (Canada) here, and I'm trying to set up my own shop. I'm about halfway through building a gasser and I've got the tools I need to make the rest of my tools. I just got an old piece of rusted railtrack. I took the grinder to the top face, but it was rounded AND had metal delamination in most corners, so that wouldn't work.

I then took the grinder to the bottom and found it fairly flat, but really pitted. The surface is 12in x 6in in size. After having taken the rust and most high spots off, I started drawfiling it to see what it would give. The result is pretty smooth, but I'd have to keep at it through probably another 5-6 movies to get all of the pits out. Or I might just go to town with the grinder and then just even things up with the file...

Here come the questions:
1- The rail will fit in my forge (barely), so the plan was to heat it to bright red then put it in a barrel of water and move it up and down to get it to harden. After this I'd bake it in the oven at 330*F for about an hour. Is there something that's wrong/could be better with this heat treatment?. (I don't know the exact makeup, but the sparks were exploding enough that I think it is hardenable.)

2- Because it's a rail bottom, there isn't a solid mass of metal under most of the striking surface. Plan is to put the rail in a pail full of cement and sink it until the cement is a bit higher than level with the lower edge of the striking surface. Would this put enough mass underneath, keeping in mind that I'm a complete beginner?

3- Because the metal is thin on the edges (1cm), I'm thinking a backing like I mentioned in Q2 would be pretty much required no matter what I do. Opinions?

I've got something that can be used as a mandrel, so I don't really need a horn, and I plan on making a separate hardy holder (and perhaps sinking it in the same bucket. Maybe it's just a quick, but I like to keep things modular.

My computer decided that it didn't like my camera, so I'll upload the pics from another computer in a few hours.

Thanks,
Toreus


Edit: it gives me an internal server error when I try to upload pics, will try again soon

[Phil Krankowski]

http://ftpforge.chez...acksmithing.pdf
I am not sure what you are explaining. Here is a good description of what you want to do.

If you are using modern rail, it is rather nicely heat treated, and you will not need to re heat treat unless the rail was heated in a fire.

Phil

[Toreus]

Thanks Phil, that PDF's going to be extremely useful!

Yay, the forum's letting me upload now!


The rail section is about 12in long, but as you can see in "Rail End View", the top is curved and the metal's in pretty bad shape. It would take a LOT of grinding to get it flat. That's why I was thinking of using the flatter, bigger bottom section (see "Rail Bottom View") as the face.

I did a quick model in SketchUp- in that picture, the green is the bucket, the pale grey is the cement and the darker grey is the upside-down rail.

Hope this is enough info, and thanks for the help!

T.

pkrankow, on 13 March 2010 - 08:51 PM, said:

http://ftpforge.chez...acksmithing.pdf
I am not sure what you are explaining. Here is a good description of what you want to do.

If you are using modern rail, it is rather nicely heat treated, and you will not need to re heat treat unless the rail was heated in a fire.

Phil

Attached Files

•  Rail Bottom View.jpg   281.63K   95 downloads
•  Rail End View.JPG   55.13K   113 downloads
•  Rail in Bucket.jpg   143.18K   89 downloads

[Dodge]

I agree with Phil. RR track is pretty hard stuff already. Besides, heat treating a piece of that size is quite an undertaking for even experienced blacksmiths. Heating the track to red will take a very long time and there is the safety issues to consider. Once you finally get the rail to critical heat, handling it will be hazardous. How long of tongs do you have?? Then, quenching it in water will create a potential scalding shower. If you and you helper (Your going to need one) manage to get the thing quenched without injury, the likelihood that you will actually improve the hardness of the steel is pretty low. I'm not trying to discourage you (well, yes I am for safety's sake ) but I belive you'd be better off just cleaning up the track the best you can and use as is. As a beginner, you time would be best spent learning the basics. Heat treating is something that can be unpredictable to even seasoned smiths without the right equipment; especially a piece of this size. Hope this is helpful. Good luck and be safe

Edit: I posted during your reply Toreus. Missed the part about using up-side-down in concrete. I don't think that's such a good idea either IMHO. The shock and vibration will eventually pulverized the concrete into powder thereby defeating its purpose. There is a lot of useful surface on the topside of even a fairly rounded track section, and when you do need a straight flat area, say, for straightening a piece, you can turn you piece the long way and use the length to your advantage. That's what I did for a couple years before I got a "real" anvil.

Edited by Dodge, 14 March 2010 - 01:07 AM.

[Phil Krankowski]

Standing the rail end up on end will get you more mass under the hammer. Since its only 12 inches long the ability to flip it around to get different features is also very useful. Your anvil only *NEEDS* to be a big as your hammer. Phil

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

One of Weygers books shows how to heat treat a RR track anvil.

If you absolutely want to clean up the top, run it over to a machine shop, or community college, and have them mill it flat.

[Toreus]

Thanks guys, greatly appreciate the help!

I figure I'll just clean it up for now and use it like Phil suggests, and if I need t flatter I'll take a page from BigGun's book and have the college mill it.

Dodge- I totally hadn't thought of the safety issues in treating a piece that big, just the logistical stuff.

I guess I'll stay on the lookout for a farm auction!

Thank you guys very much again- I'll post some pics once it's set up.

Cheers,
T.

[Dragons lair]

Ok, Here goes, Ya can carve out a anvil from a RR track. Best advise is stand it up and
use the end. I spent the time to carve a 37 lb anvil with a hardy/pritchel/step and horn.
It's great if ya wanna do jewelry. Now have real 60 lb 88 lb 142 lb 174 lb anvils.
Stand it up and use it till ya can find a better one.
Ken

[ThomasPowers]

Why rail? a broken knuckle from a RR car coupler will make a better, heavier anvil as would an old fork lift tine or even a chunk of dozer. I feel that a lot of people get hung up on RR stuff when there is much better stuff to use all around them.

[Toreus]

I'm using rail cuz it's what I managed to get!
It's my first foray into metals, all the tools I have and have access to are all for woodworking so I don't think I'd be able to cut a chunk off a dozer blade, if that's what you meant.

If I do find something bigger, I'll definitely switch up.

I just snagged an 80lb stump yesterday, so I'll just lag screw it in, and that should do to get me started.


Thanks again for the input,
T.

[ThomasPowers]

Nope not just the blade but most *any* chunk of a sizable dozer will work for an anvil, shoot you can even work on it still in place in time of need! Did you call around the repair shops and see if they had any large chunks of steel they would let you have?

Anstee did his original pattern welding experiments using a cheese weight!

[Bentiron1946]

There was a blade smith in Tempe, AZ in the late 70's that use a 16# sledge hammer head that was let into a stump for an anvil. It worked very well for the kind of work he did. All the mass was under the working surface and the work surface was polished to a high shine. The hold down went through the eye of hammer head.

[Toreus]

Bent- I think I'll want something a wee bit bigger than that for now. If I do get to bladesmithing, I'll definitely keep this in mind!

Thomas- I haven't called any shops. Look in the phonebook for "Heavy Equipment Repair" or something like that?

I got the RR track from family, and the one place I did call works mostly with mild steel. That got me a lot of metal to experiment with, though!

Cheers,
T.

[Dragons lair]

What most are saying IMHO is simply heaver is better. A 12X12X4 block of 1018 is better than a 12" rail. Don't worry about the curve on the top of the track. Had friends who
milled or ground them flat. The surface is harder tham 1/4" down. I will not part with my
carved track. It's light(37 lbs) and crowned but its just the thing for some jobs. Do not
fall into the gotta have the perfect tools mindset. You will never get there. Use what ya got. Upgrade when ya can. Pass on to other newbies when ya upgrade.
Ken