[Francis Cole]

And who ever said the orinmental iron work is not a art but a craft.

Grant watch out were the huskeies rome.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

The original post was asking about how to calculate or geometrically construct such things as scrolls. Most of my comments address that.

Sure, there are parts of a functional thing like a gate that need to be "engineered". And we often need accurate drawings for the frame and such. But, don't confuse drafting with engineering. Engineering is a design process that can be done on a napkin. Drafting is the accurate rendering trong class='bbc'> those parts that require it[/[/.

[gazilla]

I like your point of view Grant.


This piece started out as a rough sketch, I made a few scale drawings on 1/10th and once satisfied a full scale drawing of one "wing". The feet were forged out of square 30mm steel, the other parts out of 25mm and 15mm round etc., with volumes calculated to obtain the size needed. I made a trial piece of every feature before making each part. All this to stay as closely as possible to the original drawing. But still, there's a moment you need to leave the design behind and thrust your eyes and hands.
The most useful thing we learned in the few drawing lessons in blacksmithing school is to carry along a small sketchbook (100mm x 150mm, pocket size). I don't think there's a shortcut to learn drawing/design/forging, it takes practice and time. Examining work you like, at home and abroad, helps too.

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[Mainely,Bob]

Now THAT`S Art,right there.I don`t care who you are!
Beautiful work there,Gazilla.

[Blakksmyth]

For the OP.

I use Rhinoceros to create all my designs. I have used a previous posted thumbnail to demonstrate achieving an accurate reproduction. Of course, your original design can be done in the negative space. The point is that using a cad program to layout your designs can give you a very accurate base for material lengths, weights, center of gravity etc and even interference fit for locks, hinges and other components that have to work together without touching or binding.

You can lay a grid over the drawing on the computer, then print it off and use it as a reference for a large paper plan grid for use in the forge to layout your work.
I think Rhinoceros is a reasonably priced product considering how versatile it is.

Cheers,
Rob Kenning
Secretary
Artist Blacksmiths Association South Australia

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[Bryce Masuk]

Thank you to everyone for the comments and personal imput

I think a couple people took me slightly too litteraly or maybe I just poorly explained things, or maybe I am just a prick unintentionally

maybe I was just hoping that there was a method to it similar to sheet metal pattern development (some of the things are interchangable)

if you want to draw a oval it seems easier to draft it than to do it by hand its pretty hard for me to do it by hand with 4 sides the same


I have always been semi decent at sketching things I always make sure i spend a close to an hour per day drawing whatever it might be
I have never been good at printing or symetrical stuff though and i want to be

here are few of my drawings they are all pretty rough some of them are me drawing other people work, some are unfinished, some are totally random

Because my work is so rough and imperfect, I have along ways to go to begin to perfect it
I keep my trunk filled with drawings these are just on my desk/in my bag

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[Bryce Masuk]

here is another one from tonight

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[Mainely,Bob]

Bryce,you are fortunate.You seem to have good drawing skills and that`s a blessing.
I,on the other hand,have only basic skills at chicken scratching and print everything in caps because even I can`t read my handwriting.

For me the key is to be able to record the idea and feel of something quickly before is passes.You seem to be able to do that in spades.
Once you capture the feel for a piece then it`s either off to the shop to freehand it or to the drawing board to perfect it using either the digital tools or the drawing aids mentioned in the posts.
For me at least,capturing the idea is 75% of the work,the rest comes easy.I wish I had your drawing abilities,my life would be so much easier.

BTW-Are you aware of the trick for drawing an oval/ellipse using just 4 pins at 4 plotted points and then a circle of string over those points and a pencil inside the string?
I also saw a way to lay out spirals using a set of dividers that varied the radius as they were spun but can`t seem to find it now.Found it thru a google search a while back.Looked good but haven`t tried it yet.

[Cavala]

If your needing to draw srolls or spirals an easy way is to wrap a string around a piece of pipe several times tie a pencil on one end and unwind keeping the string tight. Varying the pipe size gives different spiral sizes( go figure huh). This with a combination of French curves and freehand drawing is simple. Now to match the metal to the drawing the fun part.

[Cavala]

Here is examples of the drawing technique and some french curves...

[Bryce Masuk]

thanks for the tips i have also seen people using a cone shell with a string to draw scrolls whih makes sence because it is a scroll in a spiral

I love to study architecture I have a 60's copy of banister fletcher's

A history of architecture on the comparative method

its quite an amazing book the drawings in it are incredible as well as the vast amount of knowledge from many time periods it is truly inspiring, next to seeing the real thing, this book is quite the masterpiece

here is a drawing I worked on today I didnt really nit pick it and It was off the top of my head I didnt copy anyone unless I did it sublimially. it took about 1 hour

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[Danger Dillon]

Bryce,

Try to come around less on some of the scrolls, I like to see the design opened up more, too much going on. Watch the switch back transitions and how the line flows from one scroll to the other. The top left center c scroll looks the best to me, keep drawing. Try just using a single line, double line drawings are extremely hard, you just want to get the idea down and not try and make it look like an iron bar.

[kasper]

a little busy for my liking.try not to schetch,but to draw using your whole arm,a good warm up is draw alot of free hand circles.good luck

[Bryce Masuk]

Will do I think I should spend time drawing things separately then put it together

the trick is making it all fit and make sence and still be right.


I usually sketch for line drawings you mostly want to make single swoops but for a scroll that is pretty tricky definately an experiance thing

[Mainely,Bob]

You talked earlier about design either here or on one of your other posts.
Think about how you want to frame the space first.then think about the field within that frame.
I would suggest instead of thinking about the field(the total open area of the framed gate or panel)as a series of assembled pieces think about the whole field and what you want to have happen there.Where do you want to lead the eye? What is the main direction of the flow of the entire piece?
Look at the fine examples of gates by both Danger Dillon and David Browne that are being talked about now.
One or both of those two craftsmen talked about using and thinking about negative space.It`s not so much about filling the field as it is about making what`s in the field look like it grew there and that everything there relates and belongs,including the negative space.
Mike Dillon`s use of the plate with cut outs and how it relates to the rest of the work is well worth studying.Likewise would David`s gate be near as dynamic if it had been just flame cut from one large piece of plate with curved pieces added on instead of pressed into the individual assembled pieces?

Can`t remember who said it(probably Grant) but there`s a good quote that I`ll paraphrase and hope I get it right"Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing left to add but when when there is nothing left to take away".

[Bryce Masuk]

Bob you definately have it right,

That is one thing about metal it has this feeling it creates of entirely being solid like nothing could possibly behind it
wood doesnt have the same effect it always looks soft


Back to the drawing board its time for more idea's

Good or bad weather I will keep going down the path.

[gazilla]

Bryce, aren't you trying to learn too many things at the same time? I'd first try to correctly form scrolls someone else designed, and simpler pieces of work than those you imagined, before tackling a design of my own. Same thing would apply to the design, start simple. You show imagination and willingness to progress etc, maybe you're just trying to advance a bit too quickly? I found this learning process tedious and frustrating at times, guess that's because we've been brought up in a world where everything should go quickly and average is enough.

Bob, I'm glad you like the piece but you're too kind. It's a candle holder, not art. It was a great learning experience though.

[Steeler]

Bryce Masuk, on 08 March 2010 - 08:06 PM, said:

Does anyone have suggestions on books teaching about drafting for ornamental ironwork?

I am mostly interested in the complex design's that involve pieces that seem to be using pieces that must be calculated or geometrically constructed in some way or perfectly drawn with trial and error



I know there must be some methods to the process.

I am likely missing them

I have managed to copy the work of some of the drawings but it is very very time consuming and I just just cant reproduce it like I should be able to with most things

Not that I would like to copy the work of others in metal but to understand how and why may eventually help me

Bryce, thanks for asking this question! As a relative beginner, the answers that address your question directly are very helpful for me. I don't intend to copy other people's work, but I may study it if I see elements that appeal to me. I find that I need a starting point for my design and the formulas for spirals and involutes adds to my options. I won't leave it there though. I can't seem to ever let things alone. I will change and modify the plan until I am happy with it and only then go to the forge.

[Randy]

I use AutoCad LT for all of my drawings as it is a "simple" 2D program. I have also used TurboCad with good success and a lot cheaper. I'm also hearing a lot of good things about Google's SketchUp, but haven't looked into that one yet.

As far as scrolls are concerned I don't like the mathematical formulas for it. It seems too expanded and too open to me. I was taught to use nature as a basis and a snails' shell in particular. If you note on the photo and my drawing that what happens is you start with a center point, whatever the scroll terminate will be. A snub end, ribbon end, hay penny end or what ever, then from that the scroll grows out from there. Look at the negative space. The space that's not the metal. This will gradually increase as it spirals around. So each red line from the center will keep getting slightly longer as the scroll increases in size. In actually forging this style scroll you start with the end close to the far edge of the anvil as you hammer it down to start the scroll and each time you bring it back to this point you put it farther past the edge. Just like in hammering, the best way to learn how to draw a scroll, free hand or on the computer is to practice it, a lot. I use 3 point archs to create a scroll on AutoCad and once I have a good one you can keep copying it and scale it to what size you need.

The last photo is a job I'm working on now where I have to copy some old scrolls from some fencing in NYC. Same deal.

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[HWooldridge]

I am blessed to have started drawing at a very early age so pencil and paper come naturally to me. I tend to draw scrolls freehand and find it's usually better to work quickly as the form seems to flow more smoothly off the pencil. Everybody's technique is different but I always start at the center of the scroll and work outwards.

The attached drawing doesn't have a lot of scrolls but shows my basic drawing method. I have also found that most people prefer a hand drawn sketch over a CAD drawing for wrought ironwork because it conveys a personal handmade touch and implies what they'll get when it's translated into metal. I'm not knocking CAD and use it every day in the machining world but pencil sketches seem warmer and more inviting for this work.

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