57 replies to this topic

[youngdylan]

Bentiron1946, on 26 February 2010 - 07:55 PM, said:

Files, I like files a lot. They are powered by your muscle not some electrical motor that you are not in 100% control of. You control how much you take off not some demented machine. Use the FILE!

no use the GRINDER just make sure your using a flexible disc not a hard bouncy uncontrollable one.

Actually, its not really important if you use a file or a grinder in this case. But if you're earning a living its whole different ball game. TIME IS MONEY and as long as the quality control is there is all about getting the job done the most efficiently (to me). I've 9 different angle grinders, both air and electric. Each one is dedicated to a particular disc, wire wheel etc etc. I can always quickly pick up the appropriate grinder without fannying around looking for the right spanner disc etc etc. Same applies to dynabrade pneumatic belt files. Absolutely wonderful wonderful wonderful tools. They can do certain jobs that no file can ever do One example is dressing up the inside of small domed curve, see attached picture. Kinda obsessed by them them. Got 6 upto now with various arms and always scanning ebay for more.

That said, I do appreciate the aesthetics of a filed finish compared to an "angle ground" one. There ARE certain jobs where only a filed and hand sanded finish will do ... they do take a lot longer though. In my jewellery making days I didn't have any grinders at all.

PS Bentiron, I hope I'm not stirring up a hornets nest (file v grind, electric v forge weld etc etc), it's just the way I earn my living.

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[youngdylan]

Bentiron1946, on 26 February 2010 - 07:55 PM, said:

They are powered by your muscle not some electrical motor that you are not in 100% control of.

Whats your thoughts on powerhammers then

[K. Bryan Morgan]

Youngdylan, I understand what your saying. Just so you know. I do this for fun. Not to make a living. Not yet at least. Almost every time I tell someone I blacksmith as a hobby they ask if I can make something for them and how much would it cost. I tell them, let be get better and I'll get back to you. So, you never know. It may just turn into a work environment. But in the mean time I'm gonna have fun with it. After saying that you may wonder why am I spending so much money on a brand new anvil. I believe in having good quality tools. I usually only buy them once or twice in a lifetime when I do that. That, and anvils are almost impossible to find in Alaska. People just don't let go of them.

So, I just got back from the lumber yard and got the biggest stump I can pick up for the anvil. I placed it on it just to check it out and I think I got a good one. I may need to shim it level but that is about it. After I use it a while I will make improvements as I need them. Some of you guys do some really innovative things with stumps and stands.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

For the hardy hole, I usually tear a thin strip off of a grinding belt and use it like you're shining shoes.

[Sam Salvati]

The thing you must relise here is, everyone prefers different edges on they're anvil dressed differently. SO the real answer here is to use it, and dress it how YOU want it.

[K. Bryan Morgan]

Thanks for the tip Brian, I was trying to figure out a good way to do that. Would 100 grit be ok or would I need something rougher.

Sam, I know. And right now I'm not even worried about the radii. Its more about the technique. I may just use sandpaper and buff it like a par of shoes for all of them. I faced a hammer that way and it turned out real nice. One of those cheap Mexican Tupper's. It was the first smithing hammer I bought. 3 pounder. Did the peen that way to now that I think about it.

[Sam Salvati]

Probably best to start with 36 or 60 grit, then work your way up to finish.

[youngdylan]

K. Bryan Morgan, on 26 February 2010 - 10:18 PM, said:

Youngdylan, I understand what your saying. Just so you know. I do this for fun. Not to make a living. Not yet at least. Almost every time I tell someone I blacksmith as a hobby they ask if I can make something for them and how much would it cost. I tell them, let be get better and I'll get back to you. So, you never know. It may just turn into a work environment. But in the mean time I'm gonna have fun with it. After saying that you may wonder why am I spending so much money on a brand new anvil. I believe in having good quality tools. I usually only buy them once or twice in a lifetime when I do that. That, and anvils are almost impossible to find in Alaska. People just don't let go of them.

Bryan, I hear what you're saying, sounds good to me. I'm sure a lot of smiths have gone from a passionate hobby to a "profession". I did. Amongst many things I used to be a school teacher. Passionately HATED it. Was very lucky to have a hobby that seemed a go-er re earning a living and I could use to escape from the mediocrity - browness of staff rooms.

Great thing about doing it for a living is suddenly those wonderful professional toys tools we all drool over in the catalogues when its a hobby suddenly don’t look so expensive. After off setting them against tax as an expense and claiming back the VAT they're effectively around half price. Also top end professional reliable kit becomes a must when we look at the time they save. Sometimes they are the only tools for a job; File a crisp square hole through 75mm steel versus using a slotter anybody?

Down side is the long hours and getting the balance right between doing interesting work you are still passionate about and taking on drudge just to make sure you don't drown in overheads.


I'm kinda in good place at the moment, had a run of interesting work that involves a lot of planning, logistics, problem solving, tooling up etc. It's often the front end of the job that’s the best part. I.e. evolving the design with the customer, sourcing the materials, researching new processes (latest being electropolishing stainless; it’s something else), jigging up and prototyping. Making the first few widgets is usually fun but after a few hundred Zen becomes important!

So endeth lecture #2

[IanR]

As I am not as experienced as some on this site, I wont make a recommendation, but I will make an observation. If a radius edge is desired by so many why don't anvil makers include it in the manufacturing process, especially if it's for the benefit of the anvil.

Cheers

Ian

[youngdylan]

IanR, on 27 February 2010 - 06:32 AM, said:

As I am not as experienced as some on this site, I wont make a recommendation, but I will make an observation. If a radius edge is desired by so many why don't anvil makers include it in the manufacturing process, especially if it's for the benefit of the anvil.

Cheers

Ian

I kinda assume its so the users can add ther preferred radii in there preferred postions. If the manufactures "over radiused" them to start with, there's nowt you can do. If they "under radiused" (i.e. none) them you can always add more of a radius. It's the same with some hand hammers I've bought in the past

[K. Bryan Morgan]

The owner of the company sent me an e-mail describing how he radiused his personal Rhino anvils. So much here and so much there. He also stated the reason they don't come pre-radiused is because that is a personal preference that most smiths would like to do themselves. That made sense to me. I'm thankful for all the help. I guess I will get it on the stump as soon as the weather warms up some. -15f here today and just to cold to go out to the shop and work on anything. So, I am gonna sit by the fire with my girlfriend and drink schnapps. Ok so she's working, I'll just sit by the fire and drink bourbon.

[philip in china]

I have radiused all 3 of my rhinos- and the other 2 anvils as well. This is for several reasons not least of which is to try to prevent students from chipping my babies.

On the radiusing of rhinos I recommend an angle grinder and just be careful. As regards a file- well maybe in theory it is possible but the files I have got really don't want to play. They file most things but the rhinos are actually alloy steel so when they are heat treated they are very hard. That is why they have such incredible bounce I suppose.

I put a fairly pronounced radius on the front edge and reduce this as I get towards the heel. On the far edge I leave a couple of inches by the heel sharp and put a less aggresssive radius on that edge than on the front edge. That works well for me.

I hope you get as much use and pleasure out of your rhino as the students and I get out of mine.

[Bentiron1946]

Oh, I just love all kinds of tools, hand, electrical, pneumatic, whatever it takes to get the job done, however when it comes down to putting a fine radius on the edge of the anvil I prefer to use the hand with a file in it. I have not taken more off with a file in a long time than I intended, that has not always been the case with a power tool. I have used power hammers and hammers in my hand, I have forge welded, gas welded and arc welded, they all have their proper place and use. You use what you need to get the project done and and make a dollar or two. We as smiths are not archaic in mind set but creative and use what is necessary to accomplish a task be it by hand tool or power tool.

[K. Bryan Morgan]

Philip and Bentiron thanks for the responce and the input. I am very happy with the new anvil. Unfortuanately the weather isn't cooperating. Still too cold to do anything yet. I am hoping for a break in the tempratures later this week. I have a very good stump ready to go. Some ideas for a tool rack for it. I'm going to use angle iron and lag bolts to lag it to the stump securely. I just need a nice big piece of chain to keep it quiet and will get that today.

Bentiron, I plan on doing just that. Use files and sand/emery papers to get the radii that I want. Take it slow and don't over do things. If it takes alittle while to get done, thats just fine by me. I know there are alot of working smiths who would do things differently. I am a hobbiest. So if it takes a while, it takes a while and no harm done.

[SteveMac]

Bryan,
The subject's been pretty well beat to death, but I'll add my bit.
I recommend using a hand-held belt grinder. It will do a smoother job than an angle grinder. A file can get pretty tired before it makes much progress on the Rhino -- which is, after all, hardened steel.
I also recommend radiusing the tapered heel on the Rhino. The heel is really handy for those pieces that happen to overhang in such a way that they just can't be hammered anywhere else on the anvil face without being flexed to death. When you use the heel that way, you definitely don't want a sharp edge. I recommend a radius of at least 2 mm on the heel.
But: keep a sharp edge on the step and on the face edge back near the heel because you can use it almost like a cutoff hardy.

Steve

[youngdylan]

SteveMac, on 02 March 2010 - 10:05 PM, said:

Bryan,
The subject's been pretty well beat to death, but I'll add my bit.
I recommend using a hand-held belt grinder. It will do a smoother job than an angle grinder. A file can get pretty tired before it makes much progress on the Rhino -- which is, after all, hardened steel.
I also recommend radiusing the tapered heel on the Rhino. The heel is really handy for those pieces that happen to overhang in such a way that they just can't be hammered anywhere else on the anvil face without being flexed to death. When you use the heel that way, you definitely don't want a sharp edge. I recommend a radius of at least 2 mm on the heel.
But: keep a sharp edge on the step and on the face edge back near the heel because you can use it almost like a cutoff hardy.

Steve

Just curious, who's actually put a radius on a good quality anvil with a file?. Had a quick play with a 200kg cast steel (brooks I think) and 63 kg composite (no ledgible maker mark). Sure would take a long time to put even a moderate radius on .... would probably go through a few files as well. Are we meant to use diamond files ... they aint cheap.

[philip in china]

youngdylan, on 03 March 2010 - 04:45 AM, said:

Just curious, who's actually put a radius on a good quality anvil with a file?. Had a quick play with a 200kg cast steel (brooks I think) and 63 kg composite (no ledgible maker mark). Sure would take a long time to put even a moderate radius on .... would probably go through a few files as well. Are we meant to use diamond files ... they aint cheap.

Well yes I can claim to having done it- many years ago on a bench anvil. It took the file OK although it was a reasonably hard unit. I would certainly NOT waste my time and energy trying to file a rhino!

[Don A]

My only new anvil Is a EuroAnvil, so it is probably a bit softer than a Rhino... can't say for sure.

But a file would cut it, enough that I would hit it lick every now and then until it was where I wanted it. I always draw-filed it from back to front (heel to horn).

I have also used a belt sander with finer grits. They do a nice, controlled job of dressing. Just remember to remove the little dust-catcher bag before using it on steel... especially if it has some wood dust already in it. Guess how I learned that bit of wisdom?

[Tate Roth]

From the specs the Rhino should be in the low to mid 50's hardness, while the euro anvil is in the mid 40's. Filing the euro is definately an option, but the Rhino would be a PITA. I have a Nimba and so far have left the edges alone, waiting to modify it until I know how I want it. I usually use the middle of the face anyway since I'm a bladesmith, and use a Sea Robin single billet anvil too. That's a nice anvil, with 5 1/4" square and 8 edges to play with since I got both sides hardened. I'd say play around on a hunk of steel with various radii, to see what you like before you commit to something on your Rhino.

Eventually I'd like to get a bigger Refflinghaus, with 59 hardness to 1", they sound real nice.

[K. Bryan Morgan]

I would like to thank everyone for their responses. I am learning a great deal.

Steve, 2mm is about a 1/16"ish which is about what I had in mind for most of the edges and I will be keeping some of it sharp as well.

Youngdylan, Its been done and I know of at least two smiths that have done it. I sure as heck don't want to screw this up. That being said I could always get a small hand held belt sander and use that. And I may just do that.

Don A, I already learned my dustcatcher lesson. I melted a hole in my bench sanders 6" disk dust catcher. I was squaring up a piece of steel. I smelled this melting plastic smell and was wondering where the heck that was coming from. Then I saw the smoke. That upset me. I better not have messed this brand new tool up already. When I found out what was smoking I took it off and cleaned it up. It was too late. There was the hole. Red hot sparks burn stuff.

Tate, Ya the more I'm thinking about it. The more I'm going to use a hand belt sander and do it slowly, carefully and not wear out my files and arms. The Reffinghaus anvils look real good. But dang they cost alot.