57 replies to this topic

[K. Bryan Morgan]

Well I finally got my Papa Rhino anvil. If it wasn't 5 deg. F I would light the forge and use it. I don't care that its not on a stump yet. Has no radiused edges or is still on the 2x4 pallet.

Attached Files

•  Papa Rhino 005.JPG   63.59K   503 downloads
•  Papa Rhino 008.JPG   63.04K   542 downloads
•  Papa Rhino 009.JPG   62.77K   395 downloads
•  Papa Rhino 011.JPG   63.14K   309 downloads

[jake pogrebinsky]

Congratulations,Bryan,what a magnificent tool!

After a while,do chamfer the edges,though,they're awfully fragile.Will hurt your work,too,but mainly for the sake of the anvil itself.

Amazing tool,can only imagine using something like that.100# is the biggest anvil i've spent time working on,and only the last couple of years,mostly used a 50# before.

Very happy for you!

[K. Bryan Morgan]

Thanks Jake, Its 242#. I'm going to go to the lumber mill tomorrow and get a stump for it. Then I can use my RR rail anvil for the oliver hammer I'm going to build in the near future. How would you go about radiusing the edges..with a belt sander or a flap disk ect?

[Glenn]

Once you radius the edge there is no going back. Stock removal is PERMANENT !!

Use the anvil first before your change anything. Make a radius plate to fit into the hardie hole and use it for those occasions you may need a radius. You can change a radius plate a lot easier than buying another anvil. And IF you want to grind on that new anvil, you will have a pattern to go by from where you used the radius plate. Just look for the wear pattern.

The edges of the anvil will naturally form a radius on the edges of the face from use and wear. May take 20, 30, 40 or more years, but hey, what is a little bit of time when your having fun. (grin).

[HWooldridge]

To follow on Glenn's advice, there is also no reason to have the same radius all the way around the edges. In my experience, nobody forges anything over the edge which is coincidentally so long as the face. In addition, your anvil probably has close to 50" of usable edges on the face. Subsequently, you can have a really large radius on one end that blends gradually into a sharp edge. This allows fullering over the edge in one area and sharper transitions in another area.

I hope the attached pic can illustrate this to a degree. The edge closest to the horn is sharp, as is the lengthwise edge nearest the pritchel but the edge in that same plane next to the horn has a large radius (probably 1/2"R or a bit more); the opposite edge of the anvil has an even larger radius, closer to 1"R. I can tilt a part at a 45 deg angle over these edges and fuller very quickly then drop the piece onto the anvil face and smooth out those impressions. Using a hammer with a heavy edge radius doubles this action and makes drawing a breeze. This is a 246 lb Peter Wright - you might also note the concrete base, which weighs 275 lbs, making the whole assembly a very sturdy forging platform. I have had several professional smiths use this setup during workshops or demonstrations and all of them commented favorably about the solid foundation and amount of rebound.

BTW, the stain on top was some grease that I neglected to remove before taking the photo.

Attached Files

•  anvil stand.jpg   79.71K   254 downloads

[Phil Krankowski]

Dang that's pretty!

Here's some direction on radius edges
http://www.anvilfire...Anvils%20Radius

I agree with Glenn, once the stock is removed it's gone!

Phil

[K. Bryan Morgan]

Thanks Phil.. I have read that one..I will re-read it. There seems to be quite a bit of difference of opinion on what to do..some say yes by all means radius it.. and some say why would you want to do that. It's difficult to know what to do.

[NickWheeler]

Nice anvil!!!

I'll echo Glenn's sentiment in that I would leave it alone and just use it. IF, after using it you feel you want to radius the edges then go for it... but like was mentioned, once it's gone it's gone.

You can't unscramble an egg.

I like sharp edges on my anvil, but I'm forging blades and it is just MY personal preference. I have several different blocks that slip into the hardie hole if I want a different shape.

(and I take pretty good care of mine too)

[jake pogrebinsky]

Sorry,but must EMPHATICALLY disagree with Glenn,and all others advocating procrastination in regards to chamfering.

Metal,hard as the face is,is extremely brittle where it meets the corner.A medium-strengh blow with a 1-lb hammer is guaranteed to chip it.One does have an accidental blow fall,every once in a while,and the edges do spall,and have to be ground out later anyway,but in a random pattern.

I also disagree with the chamfer increasing toward the hardy and the tail.Next to the horn is where the hardest work is done,and the radius should be largest there,3/8" or so.Toward the unsupported counter it can decrease to almost sharp,to true-up some inside corners,perhaps,but that work is done gently.

Anyone that has ever pounded a stake onto the ground would understand all the mechanics involved.And no one is safe from an occasional wild blow,so...

As to the gentleman bladesmithing on an undressed anvil,well,i suppose that you do light work,and that you do it gingerly,not much mass in a blade...Technically,the proportion is(supposed to be)1/10.mass of sledge/mass of anvil.I've exceeded that on occasion,had to.And a heavy sledge blow anywhere close to the edge will spall it,for sure,physics,you see...(Temperatures matter,as well).

Sorry,but i do hold these views categorically.

[Don A]

I have mine radiused increasingly from about 3/8 on the horn end to nearly sharp toward the tail.

I knocked mine back a little at a time over a period of a year or more. I would file and sand a bit whenever the notion struck.

I like it where it's at now.

Bear in mind that most of the new cast steel anvils will initially be softer in the face than most of the old war-horses.

I also incorporate the radius into my forging. I can set a half-blow shoulder with a radius of around 3/8 down to nearly sharp simply by changing the position of the work along the edge.

Don

[Mills]

By all means knock down the sharpness of a fresh edge.

Personally, I would take a flap wheel down each side at 45 degrees for a quick pass. Then looking back on what I have learned that I like I may do more. If you haven't a clue what you like, then stop.

I came to this opinion as I have a Hay Budden with no sharp corner whatsoever anywhere. When I need a sharp edge Well I make one to drop in the hardy hole. Kinda like Glenn said only different. It had some sharp edges when I first received it but as a beginner they didn't stay sharp for long. Finally took a belt sander to it and took off as little as possible and did not go for straight just smooth. I'd have lost a lot of anvil and had 24" radius all the way down the anvil. Now I have a couple of little gouges that work well for forming stems on leaves and smoothing out transitions.

I would like to have an edge that had a radius about like Hollis. I don't and won't till I can buy a new anvil. Then I'll probably knock it back to prevent chipping and see what develops. If you find yourself doing a permanent change to a valuable tool because you think you ought to, because somebody said to, without being sure that that is what you need to do, then you'll likely regret it. Adapting your tools to do the job you need to do is a big attraction to this craft. Do it with forethought and judiciousness.

[Phil Krankowski]

K. Bryan Morgan, on 25 February 2010 - 11:56 PM, said:

Thanks Phil.. I have read that one..I will re-read it. There seems to be quite a bit of difference of opinion on what to do..some say yes by all means radius it.. and some say why would you want to do that. It's difficult to know what to do.

I would radius. I am not sure if I would be light about it, or follow that set of directions...I just don't have enough experience yet.

I DO know what working on blown out edges is like, as my first anvil had only badly broken and blown out edges. The anvil I just picked up has damaged and good edges, and I am not sure if I want to try re-dressing them, or what yet. I don't think I need to have it welded at least.
Phil

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Whatever you choose, don't neglect the hardy hole. Radius the hardy hole before you use it with tooling.

[ThomasPowers]

I was a bit surprised to hear a bladesmith advocating a sharp edge as you sure want to avoid it in a blade as it will be a stress concentrator! My blade to tang transition tooling all has a bit of a radius to it myself!

[youngdylan]

jake pogrebinsky, on 26 February 2010 - 03:37 AM, said:

Sorry,but must EMPHATICALLY disagree with Glenn,and all others advocating procrastination in regards to chamfering. Metal,hard as the face is,is extremely brittle where it meets the corner.A medium-strengh blow with a 1-lb hammer is guaranteed to chip it.One does have an accidental blow fall,every once in a while,and the edges do spall,and have to be ground out later anyway,but in a random pattern. I also disagree with the chamfer increasing toward the hardy and the tail.Next to the horn is where the hardest work is done,and the radius should be largest there,3/8" or so.Toward the unsupported counter it can decrease to almost sharp,to true-up some inside corners,perhaps,but that work is done gently. Anyone that has ever pounded a stake onto the ground would understand all the mechanics involved.And no one is safe from an occasional wild blow,so... As to the gentleman bladesmithing on an undressed anvil,well,i suppose that you do light work,and that you do it gingerly,not much mass in a blade...Technically,the proportion is(supposed to be)1/10.mass of sledge/mass of anvil.I've exceeded that on occasion,had to.And a heavy sledge blow anywhere close to the edge will spall it,for sure,physics,you see...(Temperatures matter,as well). Sorry,but i do hold these views categorically.

I absolutely 100% categorically agree with jake p. The best analogy I can think of it a very sharp pencil, the tip nearly always breaks off when the slightest pressure is applied. A sharp 90 degree corner in hardened steel will behave similarly. Its all very predictable and tied in with basic material properties, metallurgy, mechanics physics etc etc .... go on, sharpen a pencil and suck it and see. An anvil is a working tool that is meant to be pounded on. If it's a hobbiest toy that you want to keep all shiney pristine and new and every once in a while take out to look at and polish then admire and feel all ye olde worlde blacksmithe by all means keep the edges sharp. If one the other hand you're going to use it as working tool to earn a living with let rip on it. A few hundred quid spread over a few years is relatively minor compared to other workshop expenses such as rent etc. Dress the edges at jake suggests and youll have a variety of usable predictable radii for an awfully long time, as opposed to an anvil with all sort of ad hoc dings dents cracks etc on the edges. Its not a toy (or worse something wasting away in a collection) it's a tool, treat is with the utmost respect but use it as its made to be used. How often is good engineering practice to make anything remotely stressed with a sharp internal corner? so why do you need to forge one?

[Bentiron1946]

Hey! That's one sweet looking anvil. I not going to be absolutely in one corner or another but when I got my big Fisher there were lots of little chips along the edges. I guess that some bored swab in the Navy just sat there and dinged them off for fun. Any way I had to put a radius on the dear sweet anvil of mine to get rid of them. Most of them cleaned up right nice too. It can happen to any hard face, do it now or do it later.

[K. Bryan Morgan]

First I would like to thank everyone for their opinons. Having experianced smiths being helpfull to some one who has less hammer time in is very heartenting, and I think a credit to the craft. Now as to what to do with the edges of my anvil. I can see what Jake is saying quite clearly. I understand the physics involved. There have been quite a few other who agree with him as well.

I think that Don A has a good aproach as well. Take your time and get it right. That is a philosophy that has served me well over the years.

I would also like to thank Brian Brazeal for the information about the hardy hole. I hadn't even thought about that. If my hardy tool has a radiused edge and I put it in the hardy it could spall out because it isnt sharp like the hole edge is. And you will get a better fit. I also imagine that most will have a filit that is either ground down, or not. In either case you have a tool that is rocking in the hole, not good, or you are damaging the hole, also not good.

So I will be knocking off edges as time allowes and will take my time and do it right. I have some very good Nicholson files. I can do some draw filing on it and get some of those real sharp edges, and they are very very sharp, down to a 1/8th round. At least to begin with. I will be leaving some edges sharp. But in places I won't be using heavy blows with. Over time I bet I will work it to a good working tool.

How do you go about making the radiuses and how do you make sure your getting it round and not a bunch of flat facets?

[bruce wilcock]

use a mill cut file ,and then a stone ,a sandstone to finish .

[youngdylan]

Yeah, I guess that's the best approach. Give it a minimum radius of say around 2-3mm on most commonly used edges (or even a 45 degree chamfer). This should stop it getting too badly damaged by the inevitable stray blow. You can always increase the radius near the horn to suit later. Given that this is such a small radius, I woundn't worry to much if its a bunch of facets. This is blacksmithing, not aero engineering

Kinda think it may be a bit too hard to file easily. Light and careful use of a sanding disc in a smaller angle grinder should do the job. Use both handS (one on the side handle) for best control. Stroke and feather the grinder in overlapping runs rather than pressing it on on and pull/pushing it. Maybe start with 60 grit and finish with 180 grit. Most importantly, if your unsure, practice on pieces of angle iron held in a vice. Personnally I wouldn't be too bothered about stoning it to a finish. Bearing mind my rant about it being a working tool it'll soon loose that finish.

Enjoy!

[Bentiron1946]

Files, I like files a lot. They are powered by your muscle not some electrical motor that you are not in 100% control of. You control how much you take off not some demented machine. Use the FILE!