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I Forge Iron

Dull Files


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The official line is that you should lift a file off of the work on the back-stroke. You WILL kill your files in short order if you apply pressure on the back-stroke.

I've always removed any pressure and just gently dragged file over the work when pulling it back. I find it easier to start the next stroke quickly this way as I don't need to worry about putting the file back against the work too hard if I'm going fast; I'm happy with how long my files last.

As for sharpening...Files last so long and are so cheap it's hardly seems worrth the effort to me.

Edited by cami
Forgot to put the final point in the original
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It is possible to sharpen files efficiently using acid baths. There are some tricks to doing so to get the best results but it is not rocket science as I have heard of people just using reclaimed acid from old car batteries for this purpose. There have been some threads on this here so do a search.

If you are experiencing short life from your files the most likely culprit is poor quality files to begin with. If you'll try Pferd files when you buy replacements I think you'll be astonished at the difference they make. I used to cut firewood professionally and did lots of chain saw sharpening... I found that the Pferd files would outlast Oregon or Nicholson files by about 10X. Grobet also makes very fine files but their pricing fully reflects the quality they produce while Pferd prices hardly vary from those of vastly inferior file manufacturers. Pferd is sometimes hard to find locally (but well worth the effort). Online is no problem.

RE: Sharpening Craig's list has sometimes had file sharpening services listed and the old threads here might also list some. They essentially do the acid thing for you but some are quite effective and many of their customers are very happy. I do not personally use one as I have been able to buy MANY fine files from antique dealers in the malls here for so @#$% cheap that it would be senseless to pay to have old ones sharpened. Maybe someone will chime in with the contact info of a good service for you.

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Only reason i asked is i just bought a "new to me" house. The people I bought it from I think were some of the original farmers from the area. In the basement there were a number of old files that if it were easy I would bring new life to. Sounds like its not really worth it, and will probably try reworking them into something new... (once I build a forge... I am still new at this)

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It is easy to sharpen files with acid. Suspend the file in acid. Let sit overnight. Rinse with running water, dry thoroughly, preferably with compressed air. Spray very light coat of WD-40 to prevent rust. Most acids work to some degree, nitric acid, muriatic acid, sulfuric acid, I have even used battery acid. The degree to which the file is worn out will determine the effectiveness of the sharpening. Additionaly, you will not restore a file to new condition this way. You will be able to cut metal again for a time.

As to the myth of back dragging a file, first of all the is no point since it doen't cut on the backstroke anyway. Second (this is the controvercial part) it doen't hurt the file enough to worry about either. This advice harkens all the way back to the time when files were cut by hand. A piece of steel was held to a bench and each tooth of the file was cut with a hammer and a cold chisel, an obviously time consuming process. Today a first quality brand new file can be bought for 1/10 to 1/4 of an hour of shop rate, or less, depending upon what you charge. I have also found several hundred good used files over the years at flea markets, antique shops, yardsales etc. that averaged a dollar each or so.

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Soaking a file or rasp in vinegar overnight will do a great job of loosening rust and sharpening it. Additionally it leaves a dull gray finish, that is a type of rust that protects to a certain degree from further rust.

File teeth are quite hard, but brittle. The last thing you ever want to do with a file is to let it contact other files. It dulls them quick to let them rattle together in a bag.

Since a file is brittle, a file can dull as often by tiny fracture as it does wear. Back dragging does just as much wear as pushing, so you double the life, at least if you avoid back dragging. Since the wedge shape reinforces the tooth, on a back drag, the tooth is missing the reinforcement. This is the same reason you don't drag a saw.

Don't fear the occasional back drag, but it does you no good, and your files will last twice as long.

Another very important bit of advice, Boggs Tool and File Sharpening is the best file deal you can do yourself! If you send them a file, be careful when you get it back, it will be very sharp!

If you see files that are stored touching each other, you can be assured that the user is not a file expert, and that they are not as good a deal as they could have been.

New old stock files can be really nice. I try to buy them in the original box, so that I know the wrapping has been protecting them. This forces you to buy several at a time, but the quality of some of the old files, is hard to beat.

Bob

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I have commented on past threads on this subject. My experience is that if you pickle files in acid, water rinse followed IMMEDIATELY with compressed air to dry (read one file at a time out in the air). Then followed by placing the leading edge against a wood bench (or perhaps the cutting ledge on the anvil) for support and give a brisk brushing with a file card bristle brush or another good quality fine stiff brush. This completes the cleaning of the base of the teeth (like gumming a saw). I do not spray anything on the file afterward. My files are stowed in a wooden box. I use newspaper between them although waxed paper works well too. If you keep the files clean as you use them they last a lot longer. My experience has also been that one sharpening is all she wrote for the file. I have not however used any professional file sharpening service. Hot files can bang around in a box.

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  • 2 years later...

I was looking for some info related to this thread, so I decided to resurrect it rather than starting a new one.

At the secondary school where I work we have a large box, a drawer and a cupboard full of files that I am just beginning to sort through. Some are new, some are old, I have begun to card them and chalk them, separating the really worn from the still useable.

I have to find a way in the space we have to store these files, so that they aren't stored as they are, all just thrown in together, I have been thinking of ways to rack them, or store them in rolls of felt, or other material, anything has to be better than how they are kept now. We have so many that I am not sure that rolling them up is an option, would be one really big roll!!! Was possibly thinking of just layering them in between material or oiled paper. It would be great if anyone can tell me how they store their files, or any great solutions to a mass file storage problem!!

We have tool cupboards in each of the DT classrooms where a set number of files are kept, (a selection of grades and shapes) and they slot into wooden cut-outs in the doors of the cupboards. This storage is ideal, but there isn't room for it in my "office" (the technician's workshop)

Also, there are some that are clearly past their best, rows of teeth missing, etc. Will files make good punches etc? Can I re-work them, and what would be the best approach? I've heard of making old files into knives, but that's not really appropriate here!! What are old files best recycled into? I have read that files can be made from air hardening steel, is it really just hit and miss with the kind of steel I am dealing with, should I just attempt to rework them and see what happens? Or would I be best to just consign them to the scrap pile and weigh them in?

Incidentally, we have a large number of dull bandsaw blades, for wood and metal. Good for anything or just weigh them in?

Any input appreciated.

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Wrap in paper (regular old photocopier paper), secure with a rubber band or tape. This should give 3 or more layers of paper to protect the files. As long as they are placed the paper will protect the file. You can box them up and store them with only concern for rust. Oiling or waxing the file prior to wrapping for storage will prevent rust, within reason.

Phil

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Phil, I'm guessing we've got about 200-400 files in total in the box, cupboard and drawers.. I can't imagine wrapping each one individually and securing with a rubber band... I might be doing this for the next few weeks!! :wacko:

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Note that billets made from bandsaw blade and files should have great colour and clear distinction between layers. Note too that patternwelded materials do *NOT* have to be made into knives but can be used for ornamental work as well.

How about forging files into scribes, chisels, specialty plane blades, scratch beaders, etc.

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Lucky you Colleen, old files are great for recycling. Forge in or grind off the sharps. Then...

Depending on their size you could use them to make punchs and drifts - they are good for smaller drifts because they are stronger than mild steel. If you have some matching ones they can be used ,with the tangs hammered into a block of wood which goes in the hardy hole, as a hands-free fuller. You can make screwdrivers, chisels and wedges too, firesteels are simple and effective, knives (as you've written), skewers and 'S' hooks. Anything that is small and needs to be hard / strong.

The things that I have enjoyed most are crook knives (Welsh - Twca cam) for spoon / bowl carving and gouges for the same. I like making tool that I can make other things with!

Store them in racks on a wall, 1"x1" batton along a plank with 2"x2" along the base; use more batton as spacers.

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Hi Colleen, All sorts of options here, how many students are you catering for in a class at a time.?

Sort out good and bad,

Sort out into types/sizes.

Make out sets to use in class, based on what will be made and the shapes/sizes/type of cut will be required to produce the finished items.

Then you can think of storage,

A Canvas roll with ties and individual pockets for each file for each student used to be the way they were stored and handy in EITB training centres and stored in benches or cupboards

Another alternative is the wooden ladder rack type holder, freestanding or secured to each workstation.

The remaining Good files can then be stored (and labelled) as you see fit, (the problem with storing them is will they ever get used or just stored in case)
I would suggest a long strip of material/canvas and wrap them up by putting one in, roll around the canvas place another of the same sized file on top of this, sandwiching them, and repeat until a nice handleable size, these can then be stored in tote pans or similar boxes or drawers.

Oil on files was always a No No when I was appprenticed, proper storage and handling was the norm. oil can cause the file to skid when in use.

With regard to using old files,
Consult position regarding risk assesment with reference to students ages, and projects being undertaken and the establishments insurance cover and safety requirements.

Although most files can be succesfully used by 'smiths in their own workshops, you will be using unknown materials that may or may not be safe when made into something else.

It is always best practice to use a known material and to work to manufacturers specifications and recommendations in a state educational establishment.

If you are going to use the old files, Anneal them all first and check they are soft, that way you know they are susceptible to "normal" type HT, if still hard, discard and scrap them.

We commonly use old files for chisels, hot cuts, punches and drifts, flint strikers, or other applications where we need a cutting or resisting type tool

As for the bandsaw blades, cut them up into handy sizes and store for pattern weld, or scrap.

Good luck with the classes and lets see some pics of what the students make.

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Phil, I'm guessing we've got about 200-400 files in total in the box, cupboard and drawers.. I can't imagine wrapping each one individually and securing with a rubber band... I might be doing this for the next few weeks!! :wacko:


You got free labor, I mean students.... :P

OK, I didn't realize the scale of this project. Sorting out the good from the bad QUICKLY is among your bigger problems. I would suggest finding a way you can get some helpers to make short work of different stages of this project. At a certain point of wear you can visually determine a file is shot, or needs cleaning to test.

I recall doing some organization and sorting projects like this in high school shop class. We also ended up with a situation where students were making small projects, such as step stools and wall shelves, for sale to support tool and material purchases for shop class, particularly wood working.

Phil
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I'm in favor of issuing a set of files to each student and making them responsible for their care and feeding. Store the rest of the good ones. That alone should triple the current life expectancy of them. If the students can't just reach into a drawer to get one or toss it back into the drawer when they are done, they will take better care of them.

BTW, the first thing I'd do when we got a tool order in at the beginning of a season is a pull a file of each size out of the box, wrap them up in paper, and put them away into the 'Shop Manager's Stash.' That way I ALWAYS had a good set of files available when I needed them. This also inspired the junior techs to take care of the shop's files. 'Leadership by example,' or somesuch.

And, as files get used, they can be moved along to different purposes as they wear. My good set was for hand bevelling and race tuning ski edges. Last season's good set would be used for general ski and snowboard tuning. Then they would get moved to sharpening/squaring scrapers and tools. They'd typically end their lives after 3-4 seasons being used to break in new belts for the grinders. My shops would typically use 1/2 to 1/3 as many files as another shop the same size, simply because we took better care of them in general, and made an effort to avoid using them for things they weren't ready for.

My $.02, for what it's worth.

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Relatively new files are often 1090 steel or something very similar. Some of the very old ones could be lots of things but they all tend to have decent carbon levels for cutting, scraping, etcetera. Depending on how you heat treat, tools made from them they can be useful for quite a variety of things. Bigger files can make pretty good drawknives. Quite small ones make good carving knives. They can be reforged into nice chisels or gouges. They are well suited for making scorps or spokeshaves. They can also be repurposed for plane blades. Triangle files are often recycled by hollow grinding the teeth off to make a three edged scraper (most machinists have one of these in their kit). They also make good burnishers for various uses.

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All really great advice, thanks.

Today I began sorting them in the afternoon and from one drawer I now have around 30 or so files that are in the "reworking pile" and have rolled up the others into a fabric roll. (And I'm only half way through that drawer!) My predecessor obviously did not throw anything away, lucky me!

Our classes are average 25 students in the lower years, 7-9, but as they get older the class sizes get smaller as they are doing more practical work. We have sets for the classrooms, kept in a locking cupboard, this store is kept to replenish the classroom stocks. It will depend on what I've got left of viable tools to see how they will eventually get stored.

I have referred to our risk assessments with regards to making tools, and yes, John B, you are very right, the re-use of files and such is frowned upon. Here I was thinking I might save them some money and make some tools!! I will still investigate this a little further, if it is really the case and I can't make tools for school use, I'll donate some £ to the dept and take some of the files to my workshop, the rest will be weighed in.

Also, I'm afraid there will be no pictures, our school has a very strict confidentiality code, so I'm not allowed to take pics of students or their work.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have never tried this but I was told or read that you can partially restore a dull file by rusting it any way you like, spray it with salt water, stick it in the dirt, anything that starts the file rusting will do. I don't know how long you let this process take place but might be worth a try. I myself keep them cleaned up with a card file and pitch them when they wear out.

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The cutting edge of the file is the top part of the tooth. Rust would destroy this first, I have not done this on purpose but have had files rust in the past or got them cheap that way. I have wire brushed them and removed the rust with acid. Neither of which made them work right as a file anymore for me...If any one else has tried this I woul dlike to know how it worked/

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I have to find a way in the space we have to store these files, so that they aren't stored as they are, all just thrown in together,


Colleen,
For larger files, I'd suggest a small donation to the local volunteer fire brigade (if you have one nearby) which should net you quite a few feet of leaky hose they were planning on tossing anyway. While it's a bit of a pain to cut, you only have to do it once, and the hose will last practically forever. You can even get fancy and color code the outside fabric with some paint or dye, and then proceed to toss the files back into the drawer. :lol:
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Matt I know this is going to seem like I just dont like anything. But really that is not true at all. In my early years as an auto mechanic I installed a lot of auto and light truck air conditioners. The hoses were long and had to be cut to size. I had to sharpen a pretty good pocket knife every evening to keep an edge on it. The rubber just wore the sharp off of it in no time at all. Rubber lined fire hose is like that also, a file stored in it will be in direct contact with the rubber. The outer jackets of the hose will for sure provide protection from digns and maybe even breakage. But that will be at a cost to the cutting edges. My choice for files is to put a ring on a handle and hang them. Second choice is a draw for them and the handle will keep one end from laying on the teeth. Even better would be a divided drawer so the files lay on one edge.

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