Power Hammers

[Ellen]

This thread was just started the day before the crash, so let's just get it going again.

I have ordered a 115# Octagon Iron Kiss pneumatic hammer from John Larson; it will be here mid July, and I have already selected a rigger for moving the 3,000# of hammer into my shop.

It is coming with a set of flat dies, and a set of combo dies.

I spent a couple of hours on a Big Blue 110# air hammer yesterday, and learned a lot, mostly how many new windows a power hammer opens.

So, let's share info, tips, techniques, pictures and have fun on this wonder family site!

[HWooldridge]

Ellen,

A huge topic, to be sure...I am a student of the flat die school so have 4x7 flat dies on a 100 lb mechanical hammer with a lot of "saddle" tooling and loose set tools. Many other smiths like combo dies and I do not believe there is one "right" answer. A lot will depend on what type of work you do and what your comfort level is in running the hammer. Having said all this, I'd probably start with the combo dies for general forging until you are quite comfortable with the hammer, then try something on the flat dies with a set tool.

[FredlyFX]

I have a 75lb Common Sense #2 mechanical hammer. I call it the purple beast. It runs off a flat belt. I have created a stand that holds a 5 hp motor with a couple of jack shafts to slow things down. The dies are flat, with the bottom being about 4" x 5" and the top being about 2" x 5".

I'm not completely comfortable using it yet. There is a lot more it can do than I can. I'm sure over time I will get much more use out of it.

There are a lot of pics of me rebuilding it on my web site at http://fredlyfx.com/hammer.htm

[Ironscot]

In the other power hammer line, I was asking if anyone had any experience with the Phoenix hammer. I've been looking over their video presentation for quite some time now, but haven't made up my mind. If I had my druthers, I'd have a stable of power hammers that would make the faint of heart fall into a swoon. LOL

Given that I don't have unlimited space or capacity to involve, who has had what experience with what????

Tell me why you employ what you do. Tooling? Function? What else.... :-)

[Mills]

I am using a 50 lb LG with flat dies. One of the first things I discovered is that FLAT dies don't work so well. Stay with me. I have radiused the edges several times til now they are about an 1/8" radius all around or maybe a bit more. I used an 80 grit flap disc and beeswax which leaves a nice finish. Next I recall Rsmith observing that an Slight crown on flat dies maybe a real good idea. Since I have been able to scuff up the dies as I learn technique, and they were due for some top buffing, I went ahead and dropped about 1/8" from the middle to the front in a progressive arc. The dies I have are 2 1/2" wide by 5" long. The middle strip, which is mostly flat for 1 1/2", then drops off to the edge which has a radius on it. Easiest way to visualize the profile is to think of it as an ellipse when viewed on end, then grind a flat spot on the top. That really improved things. I am still searching for more better improvements and would really like to go learn from Steve Parker and Uri Hofi. Two different approaches that work well.

Tooling: since the hammer allows me to hit bigger things a lot harder I can now get large pieces of 4140 and jack hammer bits coil springs etc. A tapering tool is one of the more used contrivances but I am still adjusting to exactly what I like. I really appreciate seeing Steve Parkers tutorial on hammer making. I am now making my tools as his are. short and with a light weight handle wrapped and welded. previously I was making them too tall and one piece.

I also would like to have a bunch of hammers to set up for different jobs. Currently I have enough parts to put together one of those cute little helve hammers like Irnsrgn built. VERY useful configuration. I hope to get a bigger hammer as well, I have located a 300 lb Beaudry for a good price but I have to get the money together and he may lose patience. Oh well living debt free is not for the faint of heart.

[frogvalley]

I would beg to differ with Mills. Flat dies do work they just work differently than crowned dies. I have the original flat combination die set that came with my Fairbanks hammer, it has two profiles, a small section and a large section in one piece. Radiused edges but no crown. This die set will draw and smooth with no problem. It can form balls and complex shapes and can handle all the hand held tooling like spring fullers and clapper/spring dies with no change of the main dies. I have a clamp to hold some of the tools in place while working.

I have both this Fairbanks #25 running from an over head flat belt line shaft driven by a 3/4 hp motor and my own version of a spring helve hammer at 75#with a 1hp motor hanging off its back. The 75 has a slightly crowned die set much like Mills has made his. Either one will make the same shapes with experience. And believe me I have been working these hammers almost every day for years and just getting busier here all the time. If anyone wants to see how they work, please feel free to stop by sometime.

A note to FredlyFX- 5hp is so over kill for your 75# by a factor of 2 or 3. A well running 75# LG style hammer will work wonders with a 1.5 or 2 hp motor. Since I have limited power in my shop due to number of factors, plus the fact that I can run these machines off of my solar power if needed, I am much concerned with efficiency. Mechanicals are of course HUGELY more energy efficient than any air hammer, including the self contained.

I have also worked on a Bradley 300lb helve hammer with crowned dies. That was a beautiful thing. It inspired me to build my own hammer. I hope to actually end up with that machine here, or its twin, as our work is now demanding even more equipment.

A word of warning to power hammer users, there is a danger with all these hammers that is sometimes over looked. Forces that are generated by hitting the metal under the hammer dies is at least partly transferred to YOU. I don't care who says otherwise, but all the "forging industry" people and blacksmiths I know who regularly use power hammers have some damage to themselves of a sort. No matter how well aligned your hammer is, how carefull you are about working with the stock at exactly the right angle, not even taking into account the occasional really dumb manuever, some of that force is transferred. Repetative motion things and the like, carpal tunnel, tendonitis of various kinds and more are common place if you do a lot of this work. It probably ain't gonna be a problem if you are just playing around on the weekends but if you do a lot be cautious...Your mileage may vary...

I am currently on a weeks rest from heavy hammering, partly with ice packs, due to 8 weeks of almost daily pounding on these machines making stock for galleries and myself , culminating in my big spring studio tour and demonstrations for 400 people here. Much of that demo stuff on the power hammers too. Guys and gals both dig the big ka chunk of them.

http://www.frogvalleyforge.com

[Ellen]

Well, I have ordered 3 die sets for my Iron Kiss; flat dies, combo dies, and crown dies. I just watched Hofi's free form forging DVD, twice, need to order a copy of my own. I hope to take classes from both Hofi and Steve in the near future.

Yep, short handles are good. Big Blue sells a set of short tools, I think 12 in the set, and a set of locking tongs to use them with, all for $250. Might be a good investment.

Safety, well, safety glasses are obvious, but there is also the extra power you are dealing with. That is where I think some air hammers have an advantage, the power is more controllable, and the ram comes down absolutely straight, not off a flywheel. Based on the short time I had with the Big Blue 110# hammer yesterday, I felt very comfortable using it; it had combo dies and they were real nice.

Drew out a knife tang from O-1 in one heat from a short stubby thing to about 5" long, tapered and ready to use.

Also drew out cross piens on two hammer blanks I had ready to go out of 1 3/4" sq. 4140, now they go to the belt grinder. The hammer made short work out of these jobs, which I could not have done by hand. I know a lot of you guys could do that kind of work by hand but I am female and 60 years old, so realism has to be added to the mix of information here. Anything over 3/4" with a hand hammer is work for me.

[dief]

I have flat, combo and crown dies for my BigBlu 110. I use the flat dies with bolt on texture dies made from 2x1.2 flat stock. I do alot of texturing on cold stock. If you get the stock (especially long sections) out of allignment with the dies it will beat the poop out of you. I've got myself trained now to use on open hand grip and always be ready to quickly lift my foot of the treadle. The first time this happend I tried to to grip harder on the flopping bar. It didn't tkae me long to figure that was a bad idea. I also wear some thick padded work gloves when I use the hammer on cold stock.

A nifty add-on - I have a 1/2in bolt expoxied in the floor just inside the treadle. This bolt has a big threaded washer on it. I can spin this washer up or down to set the speed of the hammer. This is great for texturing lots of stock and you want constistant hammer hits - just stomp and go.

[meco3hp]

Ironscot,
I looked at the Pheonix hammers also and asked the guys over on the Slacktub pub one night when the subject came up and one of the guys had one! He said they where great hammers and they where good for the money, but the companies service and tech support was almost non-existant! He ordered his and after calling constantly and threating legal action (months worth of that BS) they finally sent the hammer to him with no tooling, which he had pre paid for! He ended up making his own dies for it. For that kind of money I'd be leary of them, even though that guy was only one guy and I only got one side of the story. If you could go and directly pick the hammer up they might not try to hassle you face to face. You might call them and see what you can find out, and use your own judgment. You might post on the pub and see if anybody else has had any dealings with them.

Thanks
Richard

[FredlyFX]

"A note to FredlyFX- 5hp is so over kill for your 75# by a factor of 2 or 3."

Yes it was not my choice of motor, but I am staying with it now. I was out of money on the rebuild project, so a friend of a friend offered to buy me the motor when I was rebuilding the hammer in exchange for instruction and usage rights to make some cable damascus. I told him to get a 3hp 1750 rpm motor, and he came back with a 5hp 3450 rpm one. I had to add a second jack shaft to get the thing slowed down enough to work. Funny thing is, the guy has never called to come over and actually do any work, and it has been over a year. Good deal for me.