Power hammer test

[Tald the dead]

Just a note, this isnt an attack or saying this "idea" is xxxx but seems to be coming up alot.

Hits per minute is an interesting idea, yet if it hits faster than you can control it, be efficient and produce a clean result, then it is a hazard. I agree that the dyes should have some clearance and that will be proportional to the size of hammer.

I've never understood the idea to "test" a hammer. So many factors are in play and these hammers can be adjusted is more than one way. The most important thing on the hammer is the smith (like any tool.) That hammer will be limited to what it can do by the smith using it. Most of the time smiths who can not use a hammer properly, do not know how to forge at the anvil properly either. They coincide of each other and use the same principles.

If anything the dyes/clutch (cylinder/ air relay if air) on the hammer need to be set properly to get the most out of it. This seems to be overlooked. None the less a larger hammer will always have more power, but if the person does not know how to get the most out of it then they will not be efficient and possibly a hazard to themselves. These tools are dangerous and very bad things can happen under them very fast.

The fullering dies putting force on a small amount of mass will obviously make that mass move faster. Pulling a piece of metal to a near welding heat...of course its going to move fast.

Our test for a hammer is by cycling it when you press the treadle down. Can you control it enough to just "tap" the dyes, does it hit consistent or skip, can you do a clean one hit blow, or does it need to cycle once to get power? The speed will always be there, if not then most likely it isn't adjusted or something is worn. Because it "hits hard" doesn't make is a good hammer.

Also, I am surprised how many people cannot draw a taper efficiently, do not have their hammers (both air and belt) setup properly (no stable, mounted base) and have a theory that these hammer like the blue need 175 psi because thats what the hose can hold. At that high of psi you are just giving your air compressor a workout.

Ours our set at 100 psi which goes to 90 when the hammer is in use. They have had minimal problems, the air compressors are fine (going on 10 years.) So far we have had to rebuild a blue and a Bull (which is an older version of the Phoenix) because the smith was running it at 145 psi. Both hammers lasted a year before the cylinder failed. Mine, which started at the same, time has done fine with no problems.

Again, this isn't a "Your idea is xxxx!" because it isn't. None the less the tool is limited by the person running it. Control is everything and the tool doesn't make the art, we do.

[Jose Gomez]

Dear Mr. The Dead,

One thing I learned when I was young is that if you start off with "this is not an attack" it usually is one, just wearing different clothes.

You are right about BPM, if *you* can't control it it is going too fast, and therefore is a hazard, But that does not mean that someone else is not perfectly comfortable with it. My 25# Little Giant is reved up to where it will provide around 300 BPM, though I never really push the treadle down that hard, If need be, I merely switch to a bigger hammer. Use the right tool for the right job, and know the safe limits of your machinery. Safe, clean results are always the goal, otherwise we would not be doing it by hand.

To clarify, the purpose of testing the hammers was to attempt to provide some type of numerical data on the performance of the machines under full power for the purpose of comparing hammers. Though full power is not commonly used in most smithing applications, it is the only non-operator influenced item that can be compared in order to give someone, that is not necessarily entirely familiar with the abilities of every style of hammer, an idea about the potential of the machines.

If you had read the portion of my reply in which I stated "As far as control.. I don't really know that we can devise a test to measure control because that all really depends on the operator experience, condition of the machine, temperature of the machine, etc." You will find that I agree with you that there are many factors in play, especially the machine operator. Every machine on the planet suffers from this same affliction (the human factor). A machine, be it a power hammer or the family car, is only as capable as it's operator. Again you are correct in saying that skill with a power hammer is directly related to skill at the anvil. Using a hand hammer and a power hammer are a set of skills that require the same foundation of knowledge.

Once again I agree with you that the operator should be entirely responsible for, and have an intimate familiarity with *any* machine that they will operate. From hand drills to combines, some of the most horrific accidents that I have seen were easily avoidable and caused by operator error or negligence. These are machines, and they do what we ask them to do, even if part of your body is in the way, respect them. That's the first rule of heavy equipment.

As for performing the test with flat dies with the bar near welding heat. This is in order to eliminate the effects of fullering dies of various radi on different machines. Flat is Flat no mater the machine, fullering dies vary. And welding heat is a more consistant mark than about yellow or somewhere around orange, so it might actually provide slightly more consistent results, again, one less variable.

On the topic of your hammer test I too do this and actually alluded to it in my previous post with "I think Mike-hr came up with a great full power test, but as for control, I am willing to accept the educated opinion of other Power Hammer operators. I know that I have no problems drawing 1/4" stock to a fine point with any of my hammers, or delivering a single light tap, or full force blow, which is a little tricky with the mechanical hammers but a breeze with the air hammers". I stated this because of the fact that I understand that power without control is nothing, yet the ability to hit hard it the very purpose of these machines, otherwise there would be no need for the larger hammers.

As far as machine set up goes, you are right on with the notion that all machinery should be properly anchored and installed in accordance with manufacturers specs. I assure you that all of my hammers are bolted down to a slab that meets or exceeds specification, and that all are maintained and or tuned daily in order to ensure that they will operate safely for as long as possible. That being said, you can understand that when you state that you are "surprised how many people cannot draw a taper efficiently, do not have their hammers (both air and belt) setup properly (no stable, mounted base) and have a theory that these hammer like the blue need 175 psi because thats what the hose can hold". I draw a direct correlation between your post and the statements that I have made in previous posts. And to that, I must admit, I do take a bit of offense.

If you were to read the entire thread you will find the section in which I posted "I actually made a mistake. I supply the Big Blu with full tank pressure (175 PSI) through a 1" 200 PSI rated jack hammer air hose, but the pressure is knocked down to 150 PSI by the regulator, filter, oiler on the hammer". The pressure is not set to 175 "because thats what the hose can hold", the reason the hose rating was given was to re-enforce that the supply line was in fact sufficiently rated to *safely* handle the ammount and preasure of air that was to be expected of it, something that John n had commented on in the post prior to mine.

As for hammer air supply pressure, the regulator on the hammer is set to 150 PSI and drops to just under 140 during operation which is *exactly* what Big Blu calls for on this equipment "The hammer will run well at 21 cfm’s at 140 psi, but the more air you can supply to the hammer the more efficient it will run." This information is directly from the manufacturer, absolutely no theorizing involved on my part. If that is what the hammer needs then thats what the compressor has to supply, work out or not.

I like the idea of de-tuning the hammer to 90 PSI for doing light work, normaly I just don't push the treadle down as far, but I am willing to try anything that will reduce the amount of wear and tear on this expensive and invaluable equipment.

None the less, the tool should be limited by the person, not the opposite. Control is everything and the tool doesn't make the art, we do. We also make the tools, and the right tools used the right way sure help to produce the clean results we all strive to achieve.

[jeremy k]

Good points by everyone - one other variable which may or may not be involved is the age and wear on an existing hammer. New hammers should work great, older ones have as much control as possible only related to maintenance / use.

[Tald the dead]

Great reply.

To clarify, the purpose of testing the hammers was to attempt to provide some type of numerical data on the performance of the machines under full power for the purpose of comparing hammers. Though full power is not commonly used in most smithing applications, it is the only non-operator influenced item that can be compared in order to give someone, that is not necessarily entirely familiar with the abilities of every style of hammer, an idea about the potential of the machines.

Typicaly the size of the hammer is all that is needed.

As for hammer air supply pressure, the regulator on the hammer is set to 150 PSI and drops to just under 140 during operation which is *exactly* what Big Blu calls for on this equipment "The hammer will run well at 21 cfm’s at 140 psi, but the more air you can supply to the hammer the more efficient it will run." This information is directly from the manufacturer, absolutely no theorizing involved on my part. If that is what the hammer needs then thats what the compressor has to supply, work out or not.

By all means please do it then. Again from what I have seen the cylinder can not hold it and runs just as well at 90-100. Though in the end it is your tool and your $.

There are points I think we could probably go back and forth on and never have a resolution. None the less, like any tool (as we have stated already) needs to be appropriate for the work and the smith.

From you reply we are on the same page. I am not seeing much value in the current "idea" and thats why we have these topics. They are great to get people talking, theories buildings and other to express perspectives, thoughts and suggestions.

As for the warning that this wasn't an attack, or some comment that you thought was directed to you.. I dont know anyone on these forums and some wear their hearts on their sleeves. Kinda xxxxx if I bring it up and xxxxx if I dont. So again I apologize if it seemed that way, wasn't intentional.

jeremy k: Good points by everyone - one other variable which may or may not be involved is the age and wear on an existing hammer. New hammers should work great, older ones have as much control as possible only related to maintenance / use.

Oh yes

[David E.]

Well I think the test is a good idea Yes I know they all have rated values but I dont think for a moment anyone thinks all hammers of the same value are identical in performance, everyone has their favourite, based on their subjective , good control, footprint, supply reqd, price, etc That is the point of this test, it is an objective view on one aspect, if there are enough examples, we can make an assumption on averages if need be.
Personally I expect to see a difference between the one piece air hammers (sahinler, Anyang, Striker, Kuhn, etc) and the others.

[steveh]

I am hoping we get a good cross section of hammers.It will be interesting to see the difference between the smaller hammers against the bigger ones.

[ThomasPowers]

in my experience the size of the hammer is only loosely correlated with how much it's good for.

I have used hammers rated more than twice as large as others but they actually seemed to do 1/2 the work in real life.

[Chris Pook]

Originally Posted by ThomasPowers

in my experience the size of the hammer is only loosely correlated with how much it's good for.

I have used hammers rated more than twice as large as others but they actually seemed to do 1/2 the work in real life.

What hammers would these be?

If I had to have only one I'd take my Nazel 3b (300lb) over my 100lb little Giant thats been tuned and had a brake added. There is no comparison to the control and on demand power the Nazel has vs the Little Giant.

I've used home made air hammers, and my general feeling has been that they seem to hit light for their stated weight. Could just be the ones I have used.

The small AnYang that I used when it was on demo at a NWBA meeting, had some quirks with the linkage and the oiler, and once we had worked on the linkage it seemed to work pretty decent and I was impressed with how hard it could hit for its size. Down side being they need work to be decent hammers, dies need to be fitted, key ways need to worked etc.

[steveh]

hey Chris,are you going to do the test with your Nazel and Little Giant?

[Chris Pook]

I'll be forging tomorrow or Wednesday so I'll throw a couple pieces under the hammer.

IMHO I'd have to agree it doesn't seem to be the best way to "test" a hammer. But other than hands on testing I'm not sure what would be a good test.