Case Hardening and alloying

[KnarfleTheGarthock]

JPH....

Thank you so much, I really appreciate your candour and detail. Thank you for providing suitable alternative systems of modern bladesmithing. I will be sure to include them as valuable data.

As I said in the beginning I am asking about things I was told by someone else. Having someone say not only that it is silly but also providing me with an explanation as to why and adding comments on the correct method of modern sword making; make your post the most valuable in the room so far.

Thank you, you have saved me hours of reading and provided useful answers to the question I was asking, both quickly and efficiently. You sir are a pillar of respectability.

I cannot express to you enough, how nice it is to get a straight answer.

[Rich Hale]

I feel a storng urge to jump right in here...welcome to the site and I will give you the same advice tha I ws given and have passed on to a lot of folks. Learn the basics of forgeing Learn what metal does when you smack it with a hammer which way does it move on different parts of the anvil and with different shape and sizes of hammers. The check out the blueprints for items that may catch your interest and let you build skills in forgeing. I know you want to movdes right into sords and Maybe you have done the ground work and are ready, If not you will actually learn faster by learning basics. Mild steel for a while then something with more carbon,,the work different. Then on to higher carbon that may make aknife blade, The simple steels to heat trat start with 10 like in 1084 1095 etc the last two digits denote the carbon content larger number more carbon. Last word of advice is listen to anything you can get from JPH he literally wrote the book on this stuff. The complete bladesmith is a great starting point after you get some groundwork done. Enjoy

[KnarfleTheGarthock]

I want to thank everyone for their advice I have a great deal to learn, I know some, but could afford to learn much more. I am very excited about the thought of exploring this wonderful craft with you.

I wonder how long it will take to read all those books? Thanks for the titles I will go look them up

Thank you.

[KnarfleTheGarthock]

Just a question do you ever feel the need to experiment with materials that you made yourself? It think it would be cool to try and smelt some ore myself! Perhaps alloy that and turn it ito a beautiful thing of form and function. Something that will be apreciated as a thing of beauty that others would enjoy. Whoever gets to do this porfessionally is a lucky person I think. It is almost like making jewllery. But thats just my opinion.

[ThomasPowers]

I am sorry if you found me brusk; I must blame it on low blood sugar (insulin dependent diabetic) and a reaction to your name.

Visit Sword Forum International and read about a fellow's experimentation with using thermite to alloy metals in his backyard.

Also note that very different melting temps do not prevent some metals from alloying---the melting point of copper is way higher than that of zinc---such that zinc will burn at that temp yet brass has been a common metal for a thousand years or so. Disolving one metal into another can sometimes be done with one molten and the other solid---Al-Bronze is made that way with only the AL molten.

BTW One can say " I live in New Mexico, USA" without telling folks your street address and makes it very handy for people to mention that SWABA, the local ABANA Affiliate, will be having their meeting June 7th in Santa Fe, contact me for more details...

As for internet security; well I predate the internet; did my first programming on a teletype storing programs on punched paper tape. If you are worried about security I am sure you are using Linux like I am. Hard to say you are concerned with security if you use a microsoft product...As a parent I commend your worries; but you can provide some info without throwing the door wide.

As for case hardening and folding: you are more likely to scale off a deeper layer during the welding than you can case harden. Look into how cementation was actually done. I recently made blister steel in my forge from real wrought iron for a project I am working on, buried the WI in a pipe full of powdered charcoal, sealed the ends and threw it in the gasser to sit during several days of teaching smithing. Visible blisters on the metal!

A *lot* of us have played around with experimenting; many with years of background first. I spent about 10 years working with people who were smelting wrought iron from ore in Y1K bloomeries. I have used Theophilus' suggested quenchant from Divers Arts---written in 1120 C.E. I have read about other renaissance quenchants in "Souces for the History of the Science of Steel", both volumes of "Steelmaking before Bessemer, vol I Blister Steel, Vol II Crucible steel" and "The Knight and the Blast Furnace" the best modern book on the metallurgy of armour and a passel of other books.

JPH did not save you that time; you *still* need to do the research to give you a solid grounding to know what you are actually trying to do. The internet is a frail reed to lean on when it comes to indepth knowledge! Pay him back for his efforts by reading his books!

[Rich Hale]

Maybe think of it like this you are starting I think in the first grade,,knives may come along about 4th grade,,,sords about 8th makeing your own steel is upper division stuff. But what I think you will find as you go along is pride in your work and fewer failures from rushing things. I hope I did not misjudge where you are at in the process,,,,,

[Dodge]

Well said Thomas, Rich. Tell us were you live, Knafle. We don't want your address or social security #, but as Glenn has explained, there may be someone near you that can give you help and advice. Listing ones location will not make them anymore vulnerable to internet attack than if they remain anonymous. One thing is for certain, no one in your area can help you if you can't be found.

[KnarfleTheGarthock]

Again thanx you, I am already collecting the suggested reading material and will endeavour to learn more about this fascinating subject. My original question was part of a research project, but now that I have started learning I am finding it hard not to want to learn more. This is so fascinating, there are so many variables to understand and try to control, so many new skills to learn. It will take time. The first step will be reading the material you guys suggested.

As for my personal information, you will just have to learn to accept that I will not, at any cost reveal more, than is absolutely necessary about myself. Please try not to take offence it has absolutely nothing to do with my estimation of your personal honour. Also I would ask as a personal favour that the subject of my identity be left alone completely. I will not respond to any further questions about this.

As for the name I chose:

To Knarfle The Garthock;
A form of punishment on the planet Remulak. The offending conehead is placed in a Coliseum-like arena containing thousands of spectators. When the garthock is released the prisoner must battle it using only a hook and short staff. If the garthock is successfully Knarfled (killed), the prisoner regains his honour. If he fails the conehead is killed and eaten by the garthok.

You have betrayed your cone heritage; therefore, you will . . . knarfle the garthok!

It is an expression that was made popular by the movie coneheads and refers to accomplishing something impossible. I know it is a little more obscure than the Conan reference that is my sig. but still, thought did go into the choice.

I realise that everyone here uses their name and if my pride was the only thing at stake I would do so as well. I am hoping that this will not preclude me from your company, but if that is the case than so be it. I don’t ask you to understand all I ask is for your forbearance.

[ThomasPowers]

We'll take you on your own terms; it's just really depressing when you spend a lot of effort typing out where exactly to find something in the USA only to have the asker reply, "But I live in Australia or South Africa, or Poland, or Argentina, or..." World Wide Web you know. And many of us have fingers much better for holding hammer and tongs than pounding a keyboard.

(I personally could have a major accident and lose several fingers and that would not slow my typing down at all...)

Note that many folk use nick names here; just ones easier to type/use in conversation. You'll probably end up being known as KTG; shoot you may even end up meeting TGN!

I guess I can't invite you over when we do a bloomery run or get you in touch with a person local to you to teach aspects of the craft you want to learn. That's OK; but since you have an interest in the more esoteric aspects; it may set you back possibly 5 to 10 years of re-inventing the wheel---which in the mean time will still be rolling forward!

I have had several students who "learned" to smith off the internet (sometimes in games!). Very amusing when you put a hammer in their hand and point them at a forge.

[mod07]

There is legal issue that has come to our attention. We are a family forum, and we keep a "G" rating on the subjects, polite and helpful, that is one of the the things that set IFI apart from the rest.

BUT

Giving Minors weapons, or assisting them to manufacture one, without adult parental consent is a felony in some places. IFI does not wish to go against parental desires, nor violate any laws.

The questions, comments and attitude of this so called Knarf person indicate he is in fact a child. I am lead to believe his parents would not allow him to take part in this activity by his comments about refusing to answer any questions about even a first name or geographical location to anyone here.

Making blades can be dangerous, placing one in the hands of a child is too. We are a teaching tool, and sharing is what we do, but remember safety and local laws when dealing with children, and weapons.

Is he hiding from us ? or his family?