Case Hardening and alloying

[KnarfleTheGarthock]

Ok I am new at this so go easy on me please.

I have three questions I would like answered, which are probably really dumb, but here goes anyways.

The first question is about case hardening. I have had it suggested to me, that I might be able to take an iron sword blank and increase the carbon content of the exterior of the blade by quenching the blade in a mixture of old engine oil and coke. Apparently multiple applications are needed, but each time the process is repeated the iron will bond to the carbon in the oil and eventually steel will form on the outside if the iron is beaten while red hot and then quenched in the oil \ coke mixture again. This means that the core of the blade remains a softer iron and becomes higher in carbon content towards the exterior of the blade. Is there any truth to this?

The second question is about alloying radically different hardness metals together. If i have iron and heat it to red hot then pound the surface covered in powdered titanium or platinum. Will the iron take on some of the properties of these metals or will they just form a crust and fall off? This method was suggested to me as a way of adding radically different metals together by beating and folding the iron while red hot with a dusting of the higher temperature metal in powder form on the blade. Can this form of alloying be used to change the overall color of the blade by adding things like cobalt at the same time?

My understanding is that you end up with a sandwich of low carbon iron and razorblade thin layers of titanium when you are done.

I want to use both techniques on one sword what do you guys think?

The last question is about harmonic frequencies and blade length.
My understanding is that different materials at different lengths can produce a pure tone or note. Is it true that having a blade a certain length will allow the blade to vibrate at a certain frequency which helps in aligning the grain of the steel as you beat it. I have also heard that if a blade is at a length that will not produce a note when struck that it can actually make the steel harder to work and that the grain of the steel will be harder to normalise because of the harmonics of the blade. Any truth to this, or does all the magic happen in the fire and less during shaping or folding?

[Don A]

The really short answers:

1. no
2. no

Now, if you want to get into the long answers, you have got a ton of reading and studying to do.

Case hardening is a do-able process, but it only goes a couple thousands deep. One good go on the shapening stone, and your harness is gone.

I'll leave the titanium thing to someone else. It is basically a fantasy notion that has been perpetuated from fiction. Sure, titanium has its uses, but sword reinforcement is not one of 'em.

If you are really interested, get into this forum, Don Fogg's forum, British Blades, Sword Forum, etc., and learn the proven sciences of forging and heat treatment. I guarentee that you'll find enough magic there to last you a life-time.

Remember, the only dumb questions are the ones you don't ask. Just be ready to hear the answers when you ask the questions.

Jump on in, ask and learn... that's why I come here regularly.

My $.02

Don

[dablacksmith]

sounds like someone has been feeding you fables... a lot of hogwash in that stuff if you want to make a sword that has a soft core with a hard edge look up pattern welding or damascus. the case hardening you could do by method decribed is really crude and not worth messing with ...also case hardening is not good idea for edged weapons (usually only goes 10-20 thousanths of a inch thick) as wear and sharpening will go thru to the soft core.. this kinda stuff is in the mith buster catagory and not nessary for a good sword... if you are starting out just use a good steel (like 5160 or 1095) and harden and temper it correctly (check under hardening steel on this websight)..good luck!

[ThomasPowers]

As has been mentioned you will probably scale off more thickness than you case harden.

If you really want to get into solid phase methods of increasing carbon in a piece of iron/steel may I commend to your attention "Steelmaking before Bessemer, vol 1 Blister steel".

For number 2 it all depends on how well such items diffuse in steel at the temps and times you are using. However Ti is softer than steel, I cut Ti (CP 1 & 2) with a cheap steel hacksaw blade. Why do you want it in a blade? Platinum is a comparitively soft metal too. Please don't tell me you are basing this on the hype used to sell razors on TV! Please read the Ti FAQ over at swordforum.com.

Number 3 is BS too, sounds like it is based on the old higher frequency vibrations" hogwash a fellow used to try to sell overpriced swords with. Where vibration becomes important in a sword is that the grip should be at a vibration node (zero point) so that the sword doesn't "buzz" you hand or try to leap out of it when you hit something hard with it. Note that the "sweet spot" should be a node as well.

Have you read "The Complete Bladesmith, The Master Bladesmith and The Pattern Welded Blade" all by James Hrisoulas? If not read them! ILL them from your local library if you are in the USA.

Pity you are ashamed of your name and location or perhaps we could suggest places to go to get the straight info.

[KnarfleTheGarthock]

It is not that I am ashamed of myself or my lack of knowledge.

All I am doing is asking a bunch of more experienced people to give me their opinion on things that I have heard and that sound interesting.

As for why I don’t give out my personal information, well if you don’t understand the need for internet security I guess your ignorance shouldn't bother me. After all, I am ignorant about many aspects of blacksmithing and ask for your patience don’t I?

You can go to http://www.btplc.com/onlineidtheft/onlineidtheft.pdf to read more information

However I will ask that if you don’t have anything useful to add or if you are feeling particularly bullish and want to write an angry or vicious statement in the future. Well I would just ask that you control yourself better.

Thank you for your self restraint to those who have it and to everyone who has tried to answer my questions for me. The information is useful to me and I appreciate you taking the time to answer.

As to my reasons for wanting to use titanium and platinum... I am looking for some of the color and texture that comes from using these metals together. I was also hoping to impart some of the corrosion resistance of the platinum without losing strength and flexibility that makes a sword a good weapon. Obviously the melting temp of either platinum or titanium are far to high to add iron or steel when they are at the melting point. The iron or steel would just burn off right? So I am investigating alternative methods. Also I was under the impression that titanium was harder than a soft steel or iron. I am still learning. Is it the other way around? I know that I must read more. What i am really looking for is a bunch of layers that are bonded together of soft hard and pretty. I want my cake and want to eat it too I guess.

Case hardening as I make each of the folds would allow layers of 10-20 thousanths of a inch thick of higher carbon right? That is what you guys are saying. I know I am going to be fooling around with the temper as I do this. I also know that it will take a long time and lots of stages and folds to get what i am thinking of, but it might work out in the end. Or am I just wasting time even trying?

Apparently there is a seamless welding method that uses weight and a spinning motion to mix two dissimilar metals at low temperatures. Unfortunately it takes a huge expensive unavailable machine to do it and the only one I am aware of is at the DARPA navel advanced research facility. .

My alternitive method:
1. get 2" wide iron barstock at 0.5 cm thickness
2. heat
3. Apply powdered Platinum and beat the crap out of it
3. hot mill till 4" wide and 0.25 cm thick
4. raise tempeture till cherry red
5. quench in oil and coke
6. put out the darn fire
7. heat
8. fold in half lengthwise
9. heat
10. add titanum powder and beat the crap out of it
11. hot mill till 4" wide and 0.25 cm thick
12. heat
13. quench in oil and coke
14. put out the darn fire
15. heat
16. fold in half lengthwise
17. go to step 2

I guess I should have included this as part of my original post.

[dablacksmith]

Case hardening as I make each of the folds would allow layers of 1000th mil high carbon right? That is what you guys are saying. I know I am going to be fooling around with the temper as I do this. I also know that it will take a long time and lots of stages and folds to get what i am thinking of, but it might work out in the end. Or am I just wasting time even trying?

short anwser yes!
you should read a few books on damascus and pattern welding ... they will give the color differencial you are looking for ...corosion resistance isnt something you should have to worry about (its a SWORD) ! as far as innernet security how is the place you live going to make any difference? If they want to track you they dont need your state or country to do so... the reason we want to know where you are is to find out if there are any smiths in the area you could learn from .... good luck!

[KnarfleTheGarthock]

ok thank you, i will go study the stuff you guys suggested. Thanks for the advice and pointing me in the right direction. I really apreaciate it.

[Glenn]

KnarfleTheGarthock
Go to the top of the forum page, click on user cp, your profile, edit your details, enter your location and save. We request this information as IForgeIron is visited by over 50 world wide counties each month, and it helps us in providing you answers in your area.

IForgeIron is a family forum and will not tolerate personal attacks. If you have used the site, you understand this already. We do not mind answering questions, but we try to correct myths, and expose Hollywood hype as such, a dis-service those interested in metalworking, and the real world.

To increase your knowledge on knives, swords, and sharp and pointy things, may I suggest you join in on the IForgeIron Friday Night LIVE Chat at 10 pm eastern time US. It is a non structured question and answer session run by some experienced and knowledgeable knife makers.

Any book by James Hrisoulas would be well worth reading, and he has written 3-4 of them.

Welcome to IForgeIron, enjoy your visit.

[JPH]

Hello:

ROFL..where on earth did you come up with this stuff??

OK seriously now....while you most certainly CAN add C by cementation, and it has been done for centuries and centuries before the "Industrial Revolution" and the automotive indstry got everyone thinking more or less "alike" steel/iron wise..I have to ask why would you want to?

If you really want a "super hard" edge on a "tough" steel body simply get a piece of 1055/60 and hairpin weld on a edge of 1084/1095. Heat treat like a 10XX series steel and there ya go... Now if all you want is a single egded blade, the weld would be a bit easier...

You can always hard face the body of the blade with Stellite as well...I have done that and boy did those ever cut...

No need to go into all the weirdnesses and everything else you mentioned. I wouldn't even be concerned with the corrosion resistance unless you plan on making it your dive knife/sword or slay sea serpents...

I will be the first to say that I have done some really weird stuff in the name of hard research (like the cadaver tests I did with the DoJ back in the early 1980s...and all the Old Wive's Tale stuff like quenching in blood, wine and other SLTT) but nothing as elaborate as what you are describing...

Ti while it is a useful metal is simply not suited for an edged tool/weapon. Jon Gonz found that out about 20 years ago... Now if you want to TiN the edge...THAT will work and give you some excellent cutting ability but that will last only until you wear through the TiN coating....

Oh by the way cherry red is no where near hot enough to get a Fe material to bond the way you are wishing it to....Then again..what do I know anyways??? I just feel that you are asking for a whole lot of work and only will be disappointed at the end..

Still, as I have always said..experience is what you get when you don;t get what you wanted to...

Good luck..

JPH

[Glenn]

I read over the 27 page report on Internet Security and will suggest the following:

Question why a Web site is asking for information about you? Think about whether it is somewhere or someone you want to give your details to. Only use secure web sites and also use common sense when it comes to phishing emails and web sites

IForgeIron requests a real working email address in order to contact you if needed. This would including site verification purposes, to be sure you are you, and to provide answers to questions more quickly than your next log in.

IForgeIron requests your location (state or country) so we have some idea where you live and can adjust the answers to be more helpful. No use telling you there is a free anvil at the corner of walk and don't walk (choose-a-country) if you are on the other side of the world.

I have seen the IForgeIron community grow, and have seen new people with a sincere desire to learn get help and assistance, and lots of it. I personally know of more than one now accomplished blacksmith that has learned blacksmithing from the internet.

Blacksmithing, and bladesmithing are both very dangerous. As blacksmith or bladesmith, we weigh the risk against the reward. There is no guarantee in life or on the internet. If you feel your identity may be compromised on any website, may I suggest you not visit that site. If you feel your identity or your computer may be compromised by using the internet, then unplug the internet from your computer. Leather aprons, and safety glasses are just as important as firewalls, and anti-virus programs. Only you can make the proper decision for you.