Sand used as a flux?

[Mr Smith]

Whatever, Thomas.

Once again, I have tried to provide something of value to the Iforgeiron community, and you have decided to ride rough-shod all over it.

I don't understand what the problem is.. I posted something related to blacksmithing, in a blacksmithing thread, on a blacksmithing forum.

Honestly, Thomas, If you can't accept another person's opinion, perhaps the internet isn't for you?

I apologise to the other people following this thread; I have added what I felt necessary - I won't waste any more of your time - Thomas seems to be more than capable of fielding all of your questions.

Get it hot, and hit it hard

Mr Smith

[darrync]

as a new comer to this site i'm a little disapointed to see the breakdown and the tit-for-tat between Mr. Smith and Thomas. We all have different opinions and have all seen and heard about different things so please guys can we keep the thread about welding. I would like to try both Borax and sand to see how they effect the steels. Granted a will be starting with mild steels and then later with tool steels. Is it better to use borax for both?

[Glenn]

Go to the top of the forum page and click on user cp
click on edit profile
go to the bottom of the page, enter your location, and save.

We would like to know where in the world you are located.

[ThomasPowers]

DarryNC, borax started to be used in forge welding when the change over from using real wrought iron to using mild steel came in---the last half of the 19th century after the Bessemer converter was commercialized. "Practical Blacksmithing", Richardson; a collection of articles from 1889, 1890 and 1891, IIRC, discusses the change and the need for a different flux than the old ones.

High alloy tool steels will probably need a more aggressive flux than plain borax, a bit of fluorspar often being added---it's more toxic in it's fumes so beware!

Plain high carbon steels weld quite well with borax.

Some "mild steels" today seem to need a bit more help, which I ascribe to more elements in them than I would like from recycling steel.

Have you read "The Complete Bladesmith, The Master Bladesmith and The Pattern Welded Blade" by James Hrisoulas? He covers fluxes and welding of tool steels in them very well.

[steve sells]

Just to jump on the bandwagon, I use 20 mule team out of the box. It works very well on most everything from Wrought Iron to the tool steels I use. I lately started adding a small amount of Boric Acid to the Borax, because I started playing with Meteorites, and the high nickel needed a little help.

What I find amusing is comments from people that, from my talking to them in other contexts, I know have never welded, but seem to think they know more about how to do many things better than those of us that do those things regularly. Its a sad fact of the Internet I am afraid, as it makes knowing the real information hard to discern. But as for the matter at hand if I was only allowed one flux, it would be Borax, as its cheap, safe, and it works well for most welds. (look what is used as a flux coating on some welding rods for example)

enough of my ranting, I return you to your regularly scheduled programs.

[ThomasPowers]

I did my first pattern welded billt back in 1983 with Jim Crowel as my instructor---he's taught at the ABS school later on IIRC; been welding ever since.

I generally use 20 mule team right as it comes out of the box too; but recently as I have switched away from the great coal I was using in OH I've added boric acid to my flux as well, (Roach Prufe is 98% boric acid and you can buy a pound of it for about the same cost as an ounce of boric acid at the pharmacy...

[Finnr]

With the nasty coal I've been getting lately I also had to go to adding boric acid. Thanks for the tip on Roach Prufe!!! Thomas.
Finnr

[trattoclip]

Hello !
Nice to meet you.

I have found this document on : alt.crafts.blacksmithing newsgroup

"recommended flux for mild steel is clean sand and borax. mixed 4
parts sand and 1 part borax..
Ordinary borax contains water, when this is heated, bubbles and is
cooled it becomes borax glass. Pulverize this and mix 4 parts of this
to 1 part sal ammoniac (ammonium chloride). This mix is good for
carbon steels..
High carbon steel flux is 50% anhydrous borax, 25% boric acid and
25%silica sand.
Where would I get these?? Let your fingers walk.. Call chemical supply
houses.."

Do you confirm this method ?

Many thanks

[John B]

One problem I find when people discuss using sand as a flux is there are many types of sand, problems also with inclusions, where it was stored etc

One very well experienced blacksmith I know swears by rock, crushed up obtained from a range of local hills near to his smithy

Borax has been used for many many years, and is relatively easily available and works well.

So try different compounds, and ff it works for you, then go with it.

[Alan B]

I attended a hammer in last June and watched Steve King use sand as flux on a damascus billet. It welded fine and didn't seem to affect the pattern so I know it's possible. Trattoclip, I'm not sure why you would use silica sand, we mix silica sand with brick cement for chimney flews and such because it won't melt and break down the mortar. It is available at Lowe's and other home improvement stores with the cement products.