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Anatomy of fire

This is a discussion on Anatomy of fire within the Alchemy and Formulas forums, part of the Blacksmithing category; Correct me where I am wrong, I'm trying to put together a article so to speak on the anatomy of ...


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Old 11-27-2007, 08:13 PM
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Default Anatomy of fire

Correct me where I am wrong, I'm trying to put together a article so to speak on the anatomy of fire.

Three Parts to a Fire. Image thanks to wikipedia. Could not make a decent triangle.



A fire exists only as long as long as there is oxygen a fuel source, and heat. Fire is an oxidation process -- just like scale on a piece that you're working with -- that releases energy from the fuel in the form of light, heat, and smoke. The bi-product is ash and carbon dioxide. (Note: It is not recommend that you stare at the bright flame of a fire.) Once going fires can maintain their own heat by the release of energy in the form of heat provided there is a readily available or continuous supply of oxygen and fuel. Fire can be extinguished by removing one or two or all three of the elements of the triangle seen above.


EDIT: By Admin, then I just took the rest out.


Flame Color Chart
Red
o Dullish Red: 1300 °F
o Cherry, dull: 1455 °F
o Cherry, full: 1625 °F
o Cherry, clear: 1750 °F
Orange
o Clear: 2200 °F
White
o Whitish: 2350 °F
o Bright or Forge Welding Temperature: 2550 °F


Well, that's what I've learned so far, where am I wrong and what more can I learn?

Last edited by m_brothers; 11-28-2007 at 07:54 AM.
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:18 PM
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Smoke is not an energy.
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:23 PM
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Okay, what would it be classified as?
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:32 PM
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Smoke is unburned gas, particulate matter, etc


Phosphorus Handling and storage
Keep in a tightly closed container, stored in a cool, dry, ventilated area. Protect against physical damage. Isolate from incompatible substances. Protect from light. Avoid dust formation and control ignition sources. Employ grounding, venting and explosion relief provisions in accord with accepted engineering practices in any process capable of generating dust and/or static electricity. Empty only into inert or non-flammable atmosphere. Emptying contents into a non-inert atmosphere where flammable vapors may be present could cause a flash fire or explosion due to electrostatic discharge. Containers of this material may be hazardous when empty since they retain product residues (dust, solids); observe all warnings and precautions listed for the product.
Phosphorus Disposal Considerations
Whatever cannot be saved for recovery or recycling should be handled as hazardous waste and sent to a RCRA approved waste facility. Processing, use or contamination of this product may change the waste management options. State and local disposal regulations may differ from federal disposal regulations. Dispose of container and unused contents in accordance with federal, state and local requirements.
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:34 PM
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Smoke is a by-product. Unburned gases, etc.

The three mentioned parts combine to create what we called in the fire service the "fire tetrahedron" or something like that. Remove any of the 3 required components from the equation, and the flame disappears. Thus the importance to firefighters.

My advice is to leave the phosphorus alone, save the fireworks for the professionals.

my $.02, for what it's worth

aaron
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:45 PM
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Default Smoke

Smoke is pretty complex stuff, really. It is an aerosol (suspension of ultra-fine solid or liquid particles in a gaseous medium), and its chemical makeup varies wildly with whatever fuel is being oxidised to create the smoke.

From wood, it's usually carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, native carbon, water vapour, methanol, and heavier organics such as may be found in creosote and turpentine. You can see evidence of this when a smoky fire starts to burn cleaner. The smoke is being released as a by-product of combustion (spell it right if you're posting an informative article), and subsequently being consumed as a fuel.

From metals burning, it's usually just the metal oxide itself and absolutely not to be breathed in (most famously for zinc, but the same goes with all metal oxide vapours).
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:46 AM
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The fire triangle is a useful teaching tool, but fails to identify the fourth essential element of fire: the sustaining chemical reaction. This has led to development of the fire tetrahedron: a triangular pyramid having four sides (including the bottom).
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Old 11-28-2007, 07:05 AM
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So Fire is a Chemical Reaction between, Heat, Oxygen and Fuel, the air you are breathing is 21% Oxy, when it gets down to 13% it will not support combustion or you.
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Irnsrgn

Knowledge must be shared or it lies dead in the mind.
The Blacksmith must use Hammer and Flame to force the iron down the path of his own choosing.
I usually find it much easier to be wrong once in while than to try to be perfect.
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Old 11-28-2007, 03:26 PM
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WP as we called it in the artillery, against Geneva convention to use on troops, as it will eat through your body in a flash (no pun intended)
LEAVE THE PHOSPHORUS BE or you will regret it
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Old 12-17-2007, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keykeeper View Post
Remove any of the 3 required components from the equation, and the flame disappears. Thus the importance to firefighters.
a useful simplification for firefighters, the general public and children
it might be more useful to consider combustion instead of fire

Quote:
Combustion or burning is a complex sequence of exothermic chemical reactions between a fuel and an oxidant
while its useful to keep most fuels below an energy level where they will ignite
heat is a by product of fire, not necessarily a limiting factor to a chemical chain reaction that is supplying its own heat

Quote:
accompanied by the production of heat or both heat and light in the form of either a glow or flames.

Direct combustion by atmospheric oxygen is a reaction mediated by radical intermediates. The conditions for radical production are naturally produced by thermal runaway, where the heat generated by combustion is necessary to maintain the high temperature necessary for radical production.
atmospheric oxygen isn't even necessary, take for instance thermite
aluminum is the fuel, and rust the oxygen source. Or an oxy-fuel say hydrogen peroxide, at a 70–98+% concentration its a monopropellant the storage temperature of the fuel is immaterial as soon as the flame front arrives. You can't "remove" the heat.

Then there is another shade, autoignition, in say a diesel engine, or fire piston.
a change in pressure produces the heat for ignition

none of these shades of understanding violate the tripod\tetrahedron
just strech how most folks interpret it. Heating to an ignition point in particular can be nearly instantaneous and next to impossible to "remove"


Last edited by Ice Czar; 12-17-2007 at 11:22 PM.
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