[R Funk]

Steve Sells,

You obviously did not read my post carefully.

First of all I was no where near coming close to suggesting to tie into a to 20 amp breaker or anything close with a #12 wire to run the welder as I beleive your post indicates.

I was observing but not recommending that #12 copper THHN conductors are rated for 25 amps. And simple math would indicate that 2 of them in parallel would carry 50 amps enough to power the welder and that using them in this configuration is a violation of the National Electric Code.

What does table table 3.16 mean if it does not mean that the NEC allows 25 amps for # 12 copper THHN insulated wire "for no more than 3 current carrying conductors in raceway, cable or direct buried"?

And yes the code does permit the installation of an overcurrent device (fuse or breaker) up to the allowable ampacity of the conductor.

The exception is that inspite that the NEC clearly permits #12 THHN Copper wire for 25 amps, the code requires outlet circuts protected by a 20 amp breaker must be fed by by #12 copper wire.

Steve, I suggest that you pull out the code and read it and understand it and not accuse me of being an amatuer.

I have work with union eletricians for 20 years as a project manager and have pointed out to them violations of the code that they have installed. Union electricians are on the average better trained than non union eletricians. But I have seen them make mistakes just like others. As an example your misinterpration of the the ampacity of #12 wire.

I admit I did discuss some things that were controversial such as pluging a 50 amp load in a 30 amp circuit. However this will not create a safety issue as the 30 breaker protects the 30 amp wiring between the breaker and the 30 amp plug at its rated ampacity.

Per article 310 of the code it is not permitted to to run parrellel conductors smaller than 1/0. If you notice I said I cannot recommend this. But if each #12 THHN copper is rated for 25 amps as listed, simple math indicates that 2 will carry 50 amps and not overheat and melt down the insulation on the conductors at a substantiatly less cost than cost of #6 THHN Copper SO. And if used as an extension cord, either a 30 amp or 50 amp breaker is protecting the conductors, assuming that they are plugged into an apropriately wired 30 or 50 amp receptacle. Again I did not recommend this I simply made the observation and assumed that reciprient would evaluate and use their own judgement.

Someone suggested #6 romex. This is also a violation of the code as it not listed for "extension cord" duty and must protected from physical damage if permantly installed. But romex may be considered by many as acceptable for extension cord type duty if it is appropriately protected by using care and caution and regualarly inspected for damage.

But hear comes the bigger issue:

Do we as blacksmiths follow all the codes and standards?

No if we did every one of the gas forges that we now own would need to be destroyed. The NFPA of which the National Electric Code is section 70, requires that all fuel buring appliances, in buildings, must be equipped with a fuel train with auto gas shut-off, fire eyes to detect if the flame is lit, timers to make certain that relighting is not attempted until all the potential for a combustible or explosive atmosphere is gone etc, etc.

Further more it is a violation of codes to have a 25# or any similar LP tank in an enclosed building. (also the warning label on the tank warns of that as well) A single 25# propane tank on a popcorn popper in an Indianapolis IN arena killed 10's of people and injured many more when the tank malfunctioned in the 1960's.

Further your city can require that the Forge be UL AGA, CSA or ETML listed unless operated outside only. The installation must have a double or tripple wall vent pipe thru the roof depending on requirements or exhaust temperatures as published by the listing agency.

Further codes require that all solid fuel burning appliances must be equipped tripple wall UL, ETLM, CSA listed vent pipe. Some inspectors could insist, with some basis that a solid fuel buring appliance be UL, ETML, or CSA approved. A UL listed forge??? I will most likely never see one if they exist at all.

No we don't follow all the codes, we believe we know and understand the risks and hazards of this equipment and we believe that we have and will continue to manage these risks.

I would certainly rather face my insurance company after a fire with a substandard extension cord, properly protected for its ampacity, than face them after my gas forge malfunctioned and blew up my garage (and possibly attached house)

Perhaps I should not have brought up the composite extension cord. But it is no futher out of bounds than many of the code violations we as blacksmiths rotinuely do every time we fire up the forge.

Steve lets please keep the discussion on a fact based, non-emotional basis.

Thanks